im going to freeze my gibson tomorrow

Discussion in 'The Custom Shop' started by RedMastiff, Aug 6, 2015.

  1. LtDave32

    LtDave32 Sua Sponte Super Mod Premium Member

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    You know, I just got back from a getaway weekend, and I come back to see that there is still some bellyaching going on.

    I banned the OP because of his overly-argumentative nature, the fact that I told him in a nice manner that he wasn't really making himself clear in his posts, and I told him to not call people foul names.

    He read my post, came after me for pointing out that he wasn't clear in his posts, and then went right ahead and used foul language again.

    Guess what else? -I don't work for him. But he seems to think I do, in his "requirements" that I delete any and all posts he doesn't agree with or like. He sent a message requiring just that.

    That ain't gonna happen his way.

    If you folks want to continue this discussion on the merits of the topic at hand, because there is some interest in that topic, I'll leave it up.

    If you want to bellyache further, then you've closed the thread.

    Knowing that, continue as you see fit.
     
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  2. matt@msscguitar

    matt@msscguitar www.MSSCGuitar.com Premium Member MLP Vendor V.I.P. Member

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    That looks great!!!!
     
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  3. HRC

    HRC Senior Member

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    Do you have to cook them right away after they thaw? :laugh2:
     
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  4. Kmonz90

    Kmonz90 Member

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    Nitrocellulose by nature looses solvents from the moment you spray it most of the solvents "flash off" within the first 15 mins. but the finish is too soft to level sand and buff for about 3 weeks. But it continues to loose solvents forever. it will crack on its own after 50- 60 years just from being more brittle. temperature changes basically shock the whole guitar and messes with natural expansion and contraction of the wood and finish and the freezing makes the finish just that much more brittle causing checking...

    to answer the original question: in perfect conditions ie: a museum, probably not, or at least not a lot. But in reasonable conditions like your average house, indoors, heated in the winter, cooled in the summer it will probably still check all by its self.

    Scenarios I can think of that will cause checking off the top of my head:
    If one room is a little chillier than the other. If you store the guitar under a bed or in a closet (heat rises, cold air can accumulate under beds and in closed cosets because theres usually no vents in there you can have temperature swings). If you store the guitar on an outside wall of the home (wall cold, room warm, really messes things up Never hang a guitar on an outside wall). If theres really low humidity in the winter. Or anything else that puts off dry heat like a computer, fridge, dryer, even lights that create a lot of heat. If it's stored near heating ducts or registers or by fireplaces of any kind. Temp and humidity changes are ok for guitars. you just need to avoid extremes and avoid quick changes. always let a guitar acclimate as slowly as possible. if you do accidentally freeze your guitar bring it in and let it acclimate slowly in its case for a day. don't take it out and stick it by the fireplace. the shock will have more negative effects than the cold ever did. same goes for heat. but with heat you need to be even more careful because thats when glue joints fail.

    The best place is in its case near an inside wall away from direct heat and cold where the ambient temp is relatively stable. If you live in a house with more than one story this is in a best case scenario the down stairs family room. The kitchen makes a ton of heat so the kitchen and the floors above it are out. the kitchen is also on the main floor so in the winters when people are going in and out it can cause nasty drafts.
     
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  5. ARandall

    ARandall Senior Member

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    And there is probably not enough info on the additive laden nitro formulas to know what the likelihood of checking naturally is. As these formulations tend to be a bit proprietory , and I'm sure considerably changed over the years as various chemicals are introduced and discontinued over time, you would not know whether a formula will actually degrade in a certain way or not. I'm sure gibson has had many different formulas of what would be described as plasticised nitro in the last 10 yrs alone. How each would age is anyones guess, as the new versions are not old enough to have any examples of age yet.
     
  6. Kmonz90

    Kmonz90 Member

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    You make a convincing argument and I think your totally right. Lacquer additives and recipes change on a daily basis depending on such factors as temperature and humidity. You might add a little more thinner or retarder on a cup to cup basis. So no one can really say for sure on how a finish will age specifically, but, I think there is enough similarities in all nitro coatings to say that they will all weather some what similarly especially put into specific conditions and compared to more modern finishes.

    Thats why I think is important for people to do tests like freezing guitars and recording and sharing their results so that we can better understand the relicing process and the natural aging process. If you freeze a guitar on purpose and get check marks, you can be pretty sure whats going to happen if you leave a similar guitar in a car on a Minnesota winter night, and not be surprised in the morning.
     
  7. rockstar232007

    rockstar232007 Senior Member

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    Possibly, but not necessarily.

    One of the main factors in finish checking is the near constant expansion and contraction ("movement") of the wood. This process, on a molecular level, basically pushes and pulls the finish apart. Now, depending on how brittle the finish is, this, as in the case of vintage guitars, can happen fairly easily, as the chemicals/solvents gas-off in much shorter periods of time.

    With the addition of various plasticisers, this process happens more slowly, and over much longer periods of time.

    Most modern lacquers, those made within the last 40 years or so, contain very high levels of plasticisers, which give the lacquer a more "rubbery" consistency, even when it's "dry" (lacquer never fully "dries", btw), thus virtually eliminating any chance of "damage", be it from temp/weather changes, to simple wear/abrasions.

    As I said in an earlier post, my LP Classic has literally had the hell beaten out of it (mostly by the previous owner), and has only been cleaned/polished once (by me), and shows almost no signs of wear, aside from a few very minor dents, dings, and scratches.
     
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  8. ARandall

    ARandall Senior Member

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    Well thinner and retarder are all eliminated by the time that the lacquer is dry. These are additives for the purposes of applying the nitro. The additives I am specifically talking about are in the nitro concentrate you buy, and don't offgas in the process of drying......this is one of the fallacies from the OP actually. He somehow confused (or more accurately didn't know about) the solvents vs the additives. The latter is what we are discussing.
     
  9. schoolie

    schoolie Senior Member

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    Top wrapping and removing the pickguard can accelerate the lacquer checking.
     
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  10. herzog

    herzog Senior Member

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    You forgot changing pots and caps...
     
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  11. Kmonz90

    Kmonz90 Member

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    yes and yes. they are eliminated, but they changed the composition at the time of application on a molecular level that has to have some lasting effect on how a finish will age albeit a small one. but I think thats what were talking about small changes.
    I will be honest although I have been spraying Cardinal luthierlac Nitrocellulose finishes for years, I don't know much about additives in lacquer or the changes they will make to a finished product especially over 50 years.
     
  12. ARandall

    ARandall Senior Member

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    Thinner is simply thinner, it adds to the bulk and makes it more runny then evaporates during drying. Its like adding water to soup and then boiling off the water, you will still have the same soup left afterwards. I am not seeing a chemical reaction there, simply a physical one.
     
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  13. Homebrew

    Homebrew Senior Member

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    mine checked fairly easily
     

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  14. ARandall

    ARandall Senior Member

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    Well played indeed.

    Be a wild game of checkers on that board to be sure.
     
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  15. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Interesting thread.
     
  16. ZWILDZR1

    ZWILDZR1 Senior Member

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    I have a couple questions about checking and when they made changes to the nitro mix. First do we know about when some of the famous burst and other LP's started checking. Like Jimmy Page's 59. I just read an interview with Bernie Marsden on Gibson's website about his 59. He said he acquired it in 1974. He also said he began using it with White Snake and it was still pretty cherry and not faded much and it faded over the many years he has owned it. Jimmy if he acquired his before the start of Led Zeppelin his guitar would have been less than 8 years old. Now do we know when the changes were first made and how many times has the mix been fooled with. I am guessing they made changes to help stop the fading too. Just trying to understand if these guitars checked gradually or in a short amount of time. :hmm:

    Here is a link to the Bernie Marsden interview.
    Bernie Marsden Talks His
     
  17. rockstar232007

    rockstar232007 Senior Member

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    Under normal conditions, the lacquer used in the '50s would have stayed relatively intact even until now. It's when you expose it to extreme conditions (extreme temp changes, etc), that it really starts to break down/gas-off.

    Modern lacquer, which has been used in it's current incarnation for the past 40+years, is less prone to those things, due to the plasticisers.

    Example: Just out of sheer curiosity, I wanted to see if I could get my Classic to check. So, when we had our little "polar-vortex", I stuck it upstairs in our bungalow, where the temp actually got to well below zero (it's an old house, and not very well insulated). Waited a day or two, brought it downstairs, then ran the hairdryer on it, on the "Hot" setting. Nothing.
     
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  18. chasenblues

    chasenblues Senior Member

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    His #1 is believed to be a 59 based on certain aspects of the build of the guitar from what i've read, The serial # on it is thought to have been lost/removed when the neck was shaved before he got it. He bought it off Joe Walsh in April of 1969.
     
  19. Leebak

    Leebak Senior Member

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    In my experience, once the lacquer finish of a guitar has "break in"/"outgased" it wont stop checking over time.
    But its true that a guitar can have a "fresh" nitro almost a lifetime if you care of it very well and dont expose to sunlight.
    But if you are a player and gig, your guitars will check soon or later, and in my experience, you dont have to go to extreme temperatures to make it happen.
    Thats why for example one guitar could be 15 years "new" and after a year of hard playing/gigging it could be totally checked.
    i have a 2014 that the headstock its totally checked casue i played it a lot on outside enviroments, and every month i can see new chekings, very cool tho, i love it.
     
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  20. Left Paw

    Left Paw Senior Member

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    Yes, it is. Especially given the number of owners and threads here from those who have tried to 'freeze' their way to the *aged* look. Won't happen with the current and recent finishes. But, apparently, difficult for owners to believe.
     

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