ideal rate of twist (MLP firearms and shooting thread)

Discussion in 'The Backstage' started by Frogfur, Jul 4, 2017.

  1. KSG_Standard

    KSG_Standard Senior Member

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    I still use my Rock Chucker for small batch, test loads and stuff. I've had it since about 1984 or so. I bought a turret press after reloading for a few years...it's a lot faster to load a bunch of rounds...very handy if you shoot a lot. You can't go wrong with RCBS stuff.
     
  2. ehb

    ehb Chief Discombobulator Premium Member

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    I've considered a Dillon a time or two but I love the Rock Chucker process. I am also a bit OCD in the process (that Marine bud that taught me)... I MUST visually inspect each charge in each case in the tray to make sure there is no dumbassery on my part. I think a progressive even with the charge level sensor would drive me nuts with ME not visually inspecting each charge in the case.


    I found what worked best in my barrels and I was done tinkering. I know what that load will do. Happy happy happy. Funny, that recommended number was da cheeze for my CAR 24" Stainless bull Barrel and my Bushy DCM, Colt Sp. II Target love it too... When the CAR started drilling, I was done testing... I know that load will do well in any of the three barrels with the CAR being best... I figure in about any tight tolerance barrel, POI will be consistent for that barrel with those loads similar twist...

    I don't know near as much as some of you bona fide load tinkerers in here, but I find the previous thread posts extremely interesting. I try to learn something everyday...

    Keep slinging deets!!!

    edro
     
  3. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    I've learned during this thread as well with the explanation of military powders/H335 etc. But I learned because it was explained in such a way we could all get it. It was also supported with photos that helped to not only show the meaning of something, but to validate the post as well. You are never to old a dog to learn a new trick now and then.

    I'm pleased that there is a broad base for fire arms here. Its always a good thing to share factual information, and I feel there are allot of guys, and gals that have questions with no outlet to do so most places. My kids all know this stuff. I have really nowhere else to share what I know, so why not here with those that shoot, reload etc etc.

    Like I said, I have like 54 years of string changes, and I still don't know squat about guitars really. That why I am selective over there. Those guys like Freddy G Kris Ford Troubadour fella they know all that stuff.

    But there guys on this subject that also have questions, and can greatly benefit from those experiencies, and knowledge.

    The good thing about the old Boise Gunworks was, I was open by appointment only.

    First of all, this gave my customer time to come over, sit down and explain in detail what his/her problem, or issue was whether it took 5 minutes or an hour. As long as it wasn't just time wasting. You didn't have to stand in line at the counter to talk turkey.

    Secondly, this didn't constantly interrupt my work flow, family life or fishn'. Call me up and say, hey, got a few minutes on Sunday morning ? My thumb is stuck in my rifle chamber..
    Sure 11am work ? Here you'd come. No waiting, and you got up front, personal service between about 9:30am till around 7pm. After that leave a message.

    The guy that gets pissed, is when I whip out a screw driver, do something and say..
    "That'll be $5.00." They'd always say but all you did was turn a screw!
    I said that right, because I knew which way to turn it..
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  4. Roberteaux

    Roberteaux GOOMPH! V.I.P. Member

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    @bulletproof:

    Another vote for the RCBS press, here... :thumb:

    I concur with what Dave said about Lee presses... they're good if you're bucks-down, but they're not the herkiest kind of press ever made. Kinda cheesy, actually.

    This doesn't mean that everything Lee makes is junk. Far from it. In fact, I prefer Lee's seating die for .223/5.56mm to anything else out there. I also use Lee Factory Crimp dies for rounds that I mean to place into storage or carry further afield than just the shooting range.

    Dillon makes what appears to be the highest-dollar equipment out there, and in some cases they might be justified in this. However, you don't get anything better out of a Dillon press than you'll get out of an RCBS press.

    Here's a photo of mine:

    [​IMG]

    I used an RCBS Rock Chucker press from 1976 to about 2009, then gave it to a brother I owed some favors to, who wanted to get into reloading. There was absolutely nothing wrong with that original RCBS press-- their presses are built to last over a lifetime, literally. However, RCBS came out with a beefier model called the "Rock Chucker Supreme", and that's what I replaced the original press with. The reason I got the Supreme model was because with this newer press I could load .50 BMG if I wanted. My older press wasn't big enough to deal with that particular cartridge. The press in the above photo is a Rock Chucker Supreme model.

    Not that I ever got into loading .50 BMG... but hey: one never knows... right? :hmm:

    Think I paid about $150 for the new RCBS press. It has performed flawlessly since I got it. I have produced many thousands of rounds using that press, without so much as a hiccup.

    The powder dispenser you see in the photo is a Redding Competition BR-30 dispenser. I chose that one because it's very heavy duty and extremely accurate with the charges it dispenses. The biggest advantage I found with that one is that it's not troubled by extruded powder types, though it has a habit of chomping the little sticks in half if they happen to be in the way.

    This is the kind of thing that drives serious benchrest shooters absolutely nuts. Those guys are shooting one-hole cloverleafs at a couple hundred yards, and they get those kinds of results by ensuring consistency in their loads, which are always tailored precisely to their individual rifles. And so most of them don't actually seem to use powder dispensers for match ammo to begin with. Their matches usually involve relatively few shots fired, and so they tend to hand-measure each and every powder charge individually on a scale, usually using a spoon to put the bulk of the charge down, and then they'll use a powder trickler to fill in the rest.

    I also have a Lee Perfect Powder Measure that I use mainly for handgun loads. It's not seen in the above photo because I removed it from the bench during a really big run of nothing but 5.56mm stuff I was putting together at that time, and I needed all the bench space I could get.


    [​IMG]

    The deal with the Lee Perfect Powder Measure is that it will throw charges below the kind of weights that are typical with rifle cartridges.

    Here's a shot of the Lee model, alongside the Redding:

    [​IMG]

    The Lee dispenser can be used for rifle loads. It throws some huge amount of powder when it's maxed out, but again, the reason I have one is because it throws very small charges as well. BUT, the mostly-plastic Lee model tends to really gag and bind on extruded powders, while the Redding just sneers and bites those little sticks in half without so much as a shrug. But again: the Redding dispenser doesn't throw small charges. I think the smallest charge with the kind of flake powders I tend to use in handguns was about 12 grains-- way more than what I'd be using while loading a cartridge such as .38 Special or .44 Special.

    Being more of a "minute of man" shooter than a minute of angle guy, it doesn't bother me to know that there are little chunks of broken stick powder in my cartridges. Again: it's the true, extreme precision shooters who hate that sort of thing. Thus, the Redding is my choice for mass production of rifle cartridges, especially while using extruded (stick) powders.

    The Lee Perfect Powder Dispenser is fairly inexpensive-- like, about 50 bucks or so. The Redding will set you back a couple hundred dollars.

    There's all kinds of other gear that one uses, especially while reloading rifle cartridges or assembling them from virgin brass. The big deal with bottleneck rifle cartridges is that they have a tendency to stretch at the neck, meaning that they sometimes have to be trimmed back to specs.

    If you wish, I'll post about that sort of thing somewhere down the road. Meanwhile, I think that we've now got enough reloaders aboard this thread that pretty much any question somebody might ask can be answered by one or another of us. :thumb:

    Personally, I enjoy reloading almost as much as I enjoy shooting. There's something calming about the kind of meticulous attention to detail one must exercise while reloading, and I've had hours sail by unnoticed, with me out there in the garage, assembling cartridges. :)

    --R
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  5. smk506

    smk506 Senior Member

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    This is a great thread.

    I've had a rock chucker and paraphernalia for over TWO years now I have yet to set up. One of these days I will get on the trolley I suppose.

    To touch briefly on something mentioned here and another gun thread, I think what make MLP a valuable source for info on damn near everything is the variety of knowledge levels and experience. I consider myself fairly knowledgable in the firearm world, but surely not a know everything about anything kind of guy. My interests are eclectic and vary greatly for any or no reason. The inner working of firearms are fascinating to me, so while I have a good general understanding of the mechanics involved, having someone like Froggy around who has a depth of knowledge into these things is great. Likewise, it's great to have Rob, Scott, SteveC, Lt. and especially 458. here as everyone has done an admirable job helping take up the explanation, or at least prompting it forward as it starts dropping off from another member.

    It's great too that we all have the central interest of the guitar to boot. being able to talk to the same people about two of my best hobbies is just so cool.

    I'm glad I made it back to MLP.
     
  6. Harmony

    Harmony V.I.P. Member

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    This is true Froggy. He was so excited from that phone call. His eyes all lit up and went on to tell me about the knowledge you have and somethings he learned. I may not have really understood it all but he was high from that call :laugh2:

    And yes you do call me "dude" sometimes Rob :laugh2: I don't mind at all, we are buddies and you never offend me.

    The only one time I was in shock after all these years as friends, was when I last visited, you called me Harmony for the first time since we met :laugh2: Made me laugh though.

    I enjoyed our conversation with you Froggy, interesting and funny :)
     
  7. Malikon

    Malikon Skreeeeee-ONK! V.I.P. Member

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    of course you leave the springs! What kind of dag-burn foolish question is...

    the springs are part of what make a Strat sound like a Strat. It's like....built in Reverb springs.

    crazy people, crazy people everywhere
     
  8. Harmony

    Harmony V.I.P. Member

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    I never understood about guns or even reloading until I met Rob. I hated guns and said I would never hold one, let alone shoot one.

    It was fear and alien to me, being brought up in a different culture.

    But Rob educated me. He showed me so many things about guns, not just the shooting part, but about the parts, the ammo and took me to my first ever shooting range and more recently, a huge gun store :laugh2:

    That bench he has is amazing. He seems to have so many gadgets and his knowledge is amazing.
     
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  9. Malikon

    Malikon Skreeeeee-ONK! V.I.P. Member

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    well some people are prepared for the zombie apocalypse,..and other people are just food.

    Rob is prepared.
     
  10. Roberteaux

    Roberteaux GOOMPH! V.I.P. Member

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    Back in '77, I went through the Special Forces q-course. For soldiers of my MOS (11B, an infantry rifleman) phase 2 of this 3-phase course is a ten-week weapons school. They had us messing with all kinds of small arms issued to various military formations from around the world, current and obsolete. We were taught to act as forward observers for various types of light and heavy artillery, and to act as fire direction controllers for mortar batteries. We were also cross-trained to serve as mortar crew members, to operate recoilless rifles of various sizes, to use rocket launchers, and miscellaneous what-not. That course was a hell of a lot of fun-- but you really had to burn the midnight oil and study constantly to get past it, too. The school had a high attrition rate because they came at us with all that stuff really fast and hard. At night, after class, the guys in our barracks who were going through that particular school together drilled one another constantly.

    I told you all that just so I could mention this:

    On the very first day of instruction, the leading TAC NCO-- a tough old green beret named SFC Thornton-- told us that we should never be so damned dumb as to call ourselves "weapons experts", or to allow others to refer to us as such. He asked if any of us knew why, and of course, we didn't. :D

    So he told us: the field of firearms, munitions, and materiel is simply so vast that no one person will ever have a grip on every aspect of the topic. You'll have guys who know some, guys who know a lot across the board though not in depth, guys who have a serious depth of understanding-- but in just one or two things-- and nobody knows it all.

    In the 40 years I have lived since then, I have seen this reality show itself many, many times.

    Ah, nostalgia! Here's a photo of me on leave, at about the same time I was going through that weapons course. I'm the guy on the left, with the guy on the right being my training partner in the course itself:

    [​IMG]

    That photo was taken on the 4th of July, 1978. I almost posted it yesterday, but decided against it.

    We're happy about that ourselves!

    --R :thumb:
     
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  11. Roberteaux

    Roberteaux GOOMPH! V.I.P. Member

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    I recall that I babbled until your eyes glazed over... :D

    Glad you know where I'm coming from when that happens. I talk to you the way I talk to my bros. It just seems to come naturally... :thumb:

    I was startled when that happened, too-- even though I didn't notice it until I saw the look on your face a moment after I called you that and you said, "Did you really just call me 'Harmony?''' :shock:

    Uhm... errr... :laugh2:

    --R :D
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  12. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Don't worry Malikon, you won't become food.
    I'll grab a rifle and cover our ass while you figure out how we can run to fight another day. Can you handle a .45 ?
    Lets,do this!
     
  13. Who

    Who Who is not here. Please leave a message.... Premium Member

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    Dillon.

    Or Dillon.

    Mine is just about 30 years old now. After about 22 years, I had a small part break on the powder-dispenser. I called their service, they asked for a picture, a few days later an entire new powder assy arrived. In the years since I first bought mine, they'd upgraded that part.

    But don't buy it for the warranty. Buy it because it is a great tool.

    I have a singe-stage press as well. I started on it, and always thought it might be useful sometimes. I haven't even had it mounted to a bench since the first year or so I was reloading. I consider it wasted money. If you want it, I'll try to find it for you. "Vintage"!


    If memory serves me, it looks like this:
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Who

    Who Who is not here. Please leave a message.... Premium Member

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    Whenever I see people making plans to beat the zombies, I laugh and take notes.

    Around day 30 or so of zombie-time, I'm giving in and joining the zombies.



    I don't want to go early, in case there's a cure, but I don't want to go so late that the good-eatin' is all used up!
     
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  15. NRBQ

    NRBQ Senior Member

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    Well as usual without gun ownership I present a musical selection for your relaxation and enjoyment.
     
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  16. Malikon

    Malikon Skreeeeee-ONK! V.I.P. Member

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    I'm not trying to brag but...


    ..no not really. :laugh2:

    Fast study though. Especially when it's important. :thumb: I'm decent with a rifle, I hit more times than I miss.
     
  17. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    I myself use a Redding turret press and keep an extra turret for it as well. Works good, but I like RCBS stuff allot too.
     
  18. Roberteaux

    Roberteaux GOOMPH! V.I.P. Member

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    :laugh2:

    I'm not a "prepper" like those I've seen on television. I don't have an APC, a fallout shelter, or any of that stuff.

    Presuming that there is a nuclear holocaust, I more or less hope to be at ground zero when the bomb detonates. I wouldn't look forward to a life of scrabbling around amidst the rubble, salvaging, fighting off other humans, and all that kind of thing in the aftermath.

    However, I am prepared for those exigencies and situations that I have personally experienced in my life. For instance, I have storage food for two adults for a month, all the tools I need, medical supplies, and so forth.

    I once passed through a period in 2004 during which we had three successive hurricanes tear us up in a matter of a few days less than five weeks. One of them, Hurricane Frances, actually stalled with our location being in the first band. That was an ass-kicking 12 hours of fun, lemme tell ya. All kinds of crazy shit happened.

    And because of the three hurricanes coming together like that, one after another, we were without grid power for 21 straight days, got it restored for three days-- and then lost it again for another nine.

    The grocery stores were closed. The highways and railroad tracks were closed. The inlet was closed. Everything had been bought out in a panic spree.

    But I lived on a kind of compound with a very wise old woman named Ma Nibler, along with her daughter, another dude, and three other women. Ma and her daughter lived in the main house, and the rest of us lived in smaller dwellings clustered around the main house. We were kind of a weird little commune... we tended to hang out with one another, only. There were just a few outsiders who were truly welcome to visit.

    Ma was an old Alabama/Florida gal... she had enough food to feed an army, most any tool within reason, an enormous gasoline storage tank, a tractor, and so forth. We never went without power at any point during the interval, though we were scraping the bottom for fuel at the end of it all.

    We lived at the end of a long private road... it took a couple of days for us just to clear the road of fallen tress.

    As a result of the experience, I learned this: it's good to have enough food to last for about a month, it's good to have tools and supplies... and my observations during the aftermath of Katrina showed me that there are times when one might also be best advised to be ready for some sort of violent civil disturbance as well.

    So I'm set for a month, come hell or high water. About the only thing I changed from the original plan is that I converted my generators to burn propane instead of gasoline. Propane requires less storage space and isn't as dangerous as having an ocean of gas around, and it doesn't go south in storage, the way gasoline can and often does.

    But no way am I prepared for a realistic scenario of the truly apocalyptic type. I honestly wouldn't wish to live beyond it.

    --R
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  19. LtDave32

    LtDave32 Sua Sponte Super Mod Premium Member

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    This thread has been great! So much informative info.

    And I hope it keeps going for a while.

    A special thanks to Larry and Rob for providing so much detailed schooling.

    And I remain an ardent pupil. More, please!
     
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  20. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    I'm somewhere inbetween i guess.
    I have 14,000 rounds of ball, tracers, and blanks, a party pack of condoms(you bever know)a stack of Playboys from 1958 to 1970.
    57 packages of Oreos, 45 six packs of cheap soda pop, a VCR and 8 track.

    I'll wait'er out..
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
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