ideal rate of twist (MLP firearms and shooting thread)

Discussion in 'The Backstage' started by Frogfur, Jul 4, 2017.

  1. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Wizard look, allot of folks read this stuff, and just like guitars over there, people frequently believe what they read, and on here come to rely on that to a degree.

    If you're a shooter..great. But if you're going to post stuff like above, and you have something to say, or are proud of, then support it. Show us some of your load data, help us piece this together.

    But crazy schitt like above, some people might believe which not only misinformed them of facts, but makes them sound stupid when they repeat it around others that know better.
    Get it together if you want any respect here with shooters. They're not stupid.
     
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  2. wizard1183

    wizard1183 Premium Member

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    Let's put it this way, they used WCC844 in their 5.56 which equates to H335. Whether they still use it or not? Who knows? Lake city hasn't exactly said but many lay claim they're still using H335 or specifically WCC844. Not saying. That's for every caliber.

    My load date on scar17 I said was beginning. At 38gr up to 43 (4shot a group, moving up .4 grains per group) using 168gr A-max. 7.62x51 not .308 as I want a thicker casing. CCI rifle primers

    On FN forum, a guy got 1/2" moa using Ramtac powder. So I decided to try. Beginning my shootting I was quite uncomfy therefore making inconsistent shots. So I may have surpassed an optimum load and not realized it. At 42.8gr I was at about 1moa. I shot factory ammo (aguilar ammo acquire that) this is also military rd. (7.62x51) NOT ,308.

    Ive read guys staying on various forums about temp sensitivity of ball powder stating it "could be" dangerous. Not that it was. Also many reloaders state they prefer stick than ball powder as it's more consistent. Google the difference if you don't know.


    I'm not saying I know a lot about reloading. I don't. I'm stating what I've read and what my brother told me about the powder. And he lays claim that guys who reload state they prefer stick to ball. Alsoanyone who goes up grain at .2 rather than .4 is wasting their time as that minimum really makes no difference.

    As stated. I'm just trying. To get between 1-2-3/4" moa and it's consistent then I can go to 3-500

    ALSO LOAD DENSITY? I don't know what that means. I stated I don't reload my bro does. So I don't know how that affects accuracy?
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  3. wizard1183

    wizard1183 Premium Member

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    Sorry about that confusion there. I though ppl knew ball powder vs stick or pellet and that's what I was referring to. Should've stated powder rather than ammo. My fault. Lol
     
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  4. LtDave32

    LtDave32 Sua Sponte Super Mod Premium Member

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    You know, it's a real damn shame that someone who's very knowledgeable in a particular topic posts up an informative thread, and some way or another the entire thread turns into a god damn circus.

    I was enjoying it, and learning a lot.
     
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  5. BlankinLoud

    BlankinLoud Senior Member

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    My hands on firearm experience is with rimfires and shotguns.

    I learn a lot reading Frogfur's and Roberteaux' posts. Hope to see much more from both. Their asking price of "pay attention" for this info is far too cheap, but I'm not gonna complain. :thumb:

    I'm guessing the ONE person I've ever put on "ignore" has made an appearance. Too bad you can't use that luxury Dave.
     
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  6. TheX

    TheX Voice of Reason

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    Me too, great info in here.
     
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  7. SteveC

    SteveC Village Elder V.I.P. Member

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    Many folks at my club reload, especially the Steel Challenge centerfire pistol shooters. I shoot in the rimfire pistol division for that, so loads are all factory. But, the centerfire crowd are dedicated reloaders.

    I get it for that - set lowest possible load that will cycle the gun and keep recoil as soft as possible (i.e. muzzle rise), so that target-target transitions can be as linear as possible, with minimal correction for recoil.
     
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  8. wizard1183

    wizard1183 Premium Member

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    Believe what exactly? That anyone can shoot 3-500yrds? If you can shoot pretty accurately at 100? You can do so at 3-500. Nothing will affect your shooting at hat range but you.

    I'm not telling anyone that I know a whole lot about reloading other than what I've read. My brother laid claim that stick powder vs ball is more accurate. However I've read otherwise. Now temp difference in ball? That's a fact. You can certainly injure yourself by loading for 70 degrees and shooting at 100 with ball powder.

    I'm trying to learn just as much as anyone. Don't just say I'm full of it. Explain what's wrong with what I state and tell me what is accurate.

    Lake city is "said to use wcc844 for 5.56 in the 70s" though they don't specify what type they use now. We know factory Amman no matter how great is not as accurate as handload. So I can't say Lake City is very accurate as it's a machine that spits out 10s of thousands of rds a day. Now sniper bullets? I wouldn't be surprised if snipers did something other than use LCLR ammo.

    They claim M16 was 2moa. At 100yrds that's not bad, but I wouldn't say great. It's "good enough" though for fully auto weapons though I'm sure that's shooting at single to 3rd bursts?
     
  9. LtDave32

    LtDave32 Sua Sponte Super Mod Premium Member

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    Wizard, we're tired of the arguing. It ain't your thread. Go away.
     
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  10. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    I don't correct crap, I just call it out.
    don't post it to begin with.
     
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  11. wizard1183

    wizard1183 Premium Member

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    10:4 conquistador!!!:laugh2:
     
  12. LtDave32

    LtDave32 Sua Sponte Super Mod Premium Member

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    One more like that will get you gone.

    Your problem in this thread:

    You should have your mouth shut and your ears open when discussing sensitive topics where people could do the wrong thing and get hurt.

    You've had to clean up and change/and/or/retract yourself several times. According to you, your "brother" is the reloader. Not you.

    You have a real problem with experts and authoritans. Not good. Not for the rest of us who might want to learn something from them.

    So bow out. You're done in here.
     
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  13. Seven

    Seven Senior Member

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    I have one in 1:7, 1:8 and 1:9. :dude:
     
  14. LtDave32

    LtDave32 Sua Sponte Super Mod Premium Member

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    How do they act, given the same ammo (and assuming they are all the same barrel length)?
     
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  15. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    I'll put this out for you guys as long as we're down this road.

    Accurate Powders produces a good double base propellent specifically for the 5.56mm which is nice. Accurate 2230.
    Maybe this is is another option for you along with H335. And that is probably as close as you will get to 193, or at least another option. And if you guys know any other good combinations, please, join in.

    But again, now you have the ability to really find load density as per above. In the simplest of terms the powder that most fills the case, burns all the propellent and produces the desired pressures and velocities safely. Just like that.

    Cronographs are dirt cheap today. Not like when I got the first on in the mid 80s.
    Get one, shoot over it, find out what is,really coming out the end of that smoke pole! Once you know that, all the heavens can open up. Now you start adjusting loads for accuracy and velocity that you can really see. Until then as Paul said "you suck your thumb in wonder"...

    So get that load density down with whatever caliber you like, shoot that over something that tells you in no uncertain terms OH!..yeah..3,033ft per second or whatever. Now you're sittin' in tall..cotton brothers.

    Of interest-
    http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/556mm_ammo.html
    Very good on the history of military propellent. Quite interesting.
    http://looserounds.com/556timeline/556prop/

    Good shooting
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
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  16. bulletproof

    bulletproof aka tarddoggy Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    I find the same with gunsmithing any type of firearm....I have my Dads ole S&W 59 on the bench right now. Needs new grips and front sight.
     
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  17. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    BP..get your paws on a Brownells gunsmithing catalog well worth it for not only specialized tools, but parts and more. Many could do double duty for guitar work. Acua Glass is some amazing stuff
     
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  18. bulletproof

    bulletproof aka tarddoggy Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Right on,brother!! Got the 2016-17 catalog right here along with the AR catalog! Love them guys,man!
     
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  19. BlankinLoud

    BlankinLoud Senior Member

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    Frogfur, how do you tell if you have complete propellant burn?
     
  20. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Need say no more. You know.
     
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