ideal rate of twist (MLP firearms and shooting thread)

Discussion in 'The Backstage' started by Frogfur, Jul 4, 2017.

  1. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    If you rarely shoot, explain how you feel your going to be In the bull at 300-500 yards ?
    That's Marine Corps training territory.

    2. Yes, that would be correct. Without a chronograph you don't know how fast that bullet is, and velocity rarely has a connection to accuracy. More often than not optimum velocity and accuracy are obtained somewhere under a maxi loaded round.

    3. 42gr louder than 43gr ? What does volume (sound)have to do with this ?

    4. Brother or not, no one reloads ammo for my weapons but me.

    5. Ball ammo is supposed to be half as hot as military powders ? We haven't spent time in this post for assumptions. Where did you get that fact from ?

    6. Fact check..ball powder is, how'd you say..
    Inconsistent? Where did you here that ?

    7. Before you start shooting too hot ? So...
    You'll shoot hot loads ?

    8. Again if you rarely shoot your expecting half minute accuracy? Are you a natural ?

    You aren't blow'n smoke up my ass are ya ?
    Just checking.
     
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  2. LtDave32

    LtDave32 Sua Sponte Super Mod Premium Member

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    :rofl: :applause:
     
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  3. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    While we are on this subject let me throw in how to calculate your loading densities,
    (Make it easy on your brother.)

    If you don't have any software that will do this, do like Marines that don't have nothing.

    1. Determine the powder capacity of the cartridge. Do this by filing a small notch in the cartridge case on the outside of the case where the base of the bullet would be seated.

    2. Weigh the case, and the bullet seperate, fill the case with water and then carefully seat your bullet while displacing the water out of the notch you filed in the case. Weigh the case with water and seated bullet.
    The difference in the weights is the powder capasity of the case in grains of water.

    3. Next, you have to know the bulk density of the powder you are using. You probably have to find this info yourself, although some companies do publish that data.

    Bulk densities are usually expressed in grams per cubic centimeter, and since the weight of 1 cc of water is nearly always one gram, a bulk density of something like 0.970g/cc means the powder is 97% as dense as water. Can you dig that so far ?

    Bulk density is therefore also the power's weight in any volume divided by the weight of the water filling the same volume.

    Lastly, to find bulk density for a powder first weigh a container to determine its weight on your scale. Fill the empty container with water and weigh again. Divide the weight of the powder the container will hold by the weight of the water it will hold. The results ?
    1.000 or less is the bull density of the powder.

    Are we squared away on load densities..?
    I'm sure Rob being a hand loader has some input on the subject when he catches up to this.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  4. Malikon

    Malikon 仮面ライダー V.I.P. Member

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    I'm not trying to troll but basically you're all wrong, ....totally wrong.


















    because Chubby Checker says the ideal rate of twist takes you by the little hand and goes like this...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  5. LtDave32

    LtDave32 Sua Sponte Super Mod Premium Member

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    Froggy, if one stuck with H335 as a powder, and 25.0 charge being the norm to achieve M193 standard performance, what would you change in powder charge versus bullet weight (going heavier, not lighter) for good performance? No more heavy than say, 70 grain bullets?
     
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  6. LtDave32

    LtDave32 Sua Sponte Super Mod Premium Member

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    Yeah, but the next year he said "twist again like we did last Summer", so he's redundant.
     
  7. wizard1183

    wizard1183 Premium Member

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    For starters accuracy is dependent on comfortability and stillness. That's it! It you can keep the scope on target consistently? That's all there is to it! The reason ppl are innacurate using factory? Is the flinch or uncomfortable. That it!

    My brother knows what he's doing reloading. I don't he does. He checks the pressure on the casing as we go. No problems.

    Military uses ONLY ball ammo. Perhaps they don't in the LR ammo but regular? That's ALL they use! Temp denisity is not as good as pellet and certainly not as consistent. Remember, military doesn't give 2 shits how accurate their machine gun ammo is as they basically have an unlimited supply. Just throw lead down field...

    The loudness just means the load is hotter. Ramtac says begin at 38gr as you go higher in grain? You know the load is getting hotter and louder. Factory ammo is loaded pretty hot. Not saying near max but I certainly don't want 45gr as barrel will wear and possible breakage if not worse.

    As for 3-500yrds? As I said, comfortable shooting is all it takes. I'm not trying to shoot 10 shots in 20seconds at that range. So basically? If I can shoot 1/2" moa at 100? I can shoot consistently at 3-500 no probs. As I said, stillness is key. Ppl who don't or can't shoot that distance? Are moving too much and flinch and are not comfy in their shooting position. If I can shoot 1/2" moa barely seeing the bullseye? I can most certainly hit 3-500 no prob consistent...

    Now 600-1000? It'll take a bit of practice e. But eventually illl get there as well. These days? 1000yrds is NOT that difficult.
     
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  8. wizard1183

    wizard1183 Premium Member

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    We're not trying to get into the nitty gritty where we're weighing cases, and trying several powders, several diff bullet seating ect. Ball powder compared to pellet is much more susceptible to temp density where you can load a ball powder at a certain grain and begin shooting in 90 degree weather and that cartridge begins to be very dangerous using some powders. Supposedly Ramtac is decent as to why military may use it? But pellet is a lot better with this.

    The object is or my object is just to shoot 1/2-3/4 moa at 100. Remember. This is a Scar 17 we're taking about. Not a bolt action rifle. So it certainly won't be extremely accurate but accurate "enough."
     
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  9. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Bullshit. By far thats not all there is to it.
    People get to rely on infornation they read on here. Don't put crap statements like that up here.

    explain please how he is checking pressures in detail for us all to understand.

    the military ammo statement is another mis-statement. Very generalized and broad. No..that is not all they use.

    Loudness of the round as an indicator?
    Thats pure bullshit. Where are you coming from dude.,? That has absolutely NOTHING to do with pressures or velosity.

    300-500 yards easy ? Really. What size bull are you shooting ? You former Marine Corps? I could barely see the bull at 18 yesrs of age at that distance.

    that whole reply up there is total crap. Don't put misleading information in this informative post. Anything else is trolling.
     
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  10. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    I'll take whatever your smoking..
     
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  11. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Just reduce your charge weight until you achive the accuracy your looking for with various bullets in that weight range, but see loading density here as well. Works perfect. I've used this method for years.
     
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  12. bulletproof

    bulletproof aka tarddoggy Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Thats just not true,brother. Who told you that? While I am not a reloader(I am learning,among many other projects),I do remember my time in the Army very well. And we used ALL types of rounds....Im not jumping your ass,man,just pointing out that you got some disinformation there.
     
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  13. wizard1183

    wizard1183 Premium Member

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    Looking at casing as well as the primer will show signs of pressure too great IF you're not over but close near the point of overloading. You know this.

    H335 IS a ball powder and military uses it consistently. I didn't say that's ALL( actually I did, but that barring LR) they use as long range I'm not sure what Lake City inputs into those rds. What I do know is that the rds they use in their non sniper rifles is not that accurate.

    And verses pellet? It's not at consistent or accurate. It's very finicky. As I said one load may be good and .2 grains more and you begin to fall off the curve.

    Ballistics within 3-500 yards are NOT that great or important when shooting as you're well within range to shoot consistently. 800-1000+? It begins to start taking shape where calcs need to be inserted to shoot consistently but as stated Still not that difficult. Just practice. 3-500yrds is not a difficult shot unless your using sub par equip or open sight. Then? It's take substantial skill. Good Glass is all that's required and ability to be stable. There is no drift (unless we're taking 20+ mph wind) or anything more to shoot 3-5. No atmospheric or environmental impact on the bullet at that small distance.

    And yes, loudness? Reload a rd with the powders beginning amount and then load hotter (say 4-5 grains) and tell me there's no difference in sound. It's MUCH louder! And velocity is much more from beginning to end. Ex. 38gr to 44gr velocity is increased from probably 2500-2700fps. (This is a guesstimate. I'm not exactly sure? But it's a fact that load increase, increases in velocity)

    At 3-500 I'm not taking about hitting a bullseye. I'm talking about hitting a torso size target. You know? 36"L x 18" W? Very doable.

    You're acting like it's a feat in itself to shoot at that distance?

    I tell you what, stand 500 yards away and give me one shot with a rifle to hit you. Let me see what happens lol jk. I wouldn't shoot you. But if we're taking a decently accurate rifle? At 500? I may not hit bullseyes, but I can assure you I'll nail the target. And as I said, I rarely shoot. It's not that difficult as you're portraying it to be. Though let me get comfortable and have plenty time enough to throw my crosshairs on the target.

    Eventually? I want it take a class at long range shooting. To get a better understanding of the calcs ect. Of course nothing is like real world shooting
     
  14. wizard1183

    wizard1183 Premium Member

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    The thing is Lake City is ALL the military uses. And ball powder is a large majority of what they use. Rounds are different than powder. What kind of powder does Lake City use? As they produce the military's ammo.
     
  15. bulletproof

    bulletproof aka tarddoggy Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Ball powder?? I dont know about any ball powder,however,you stated ball AMMO. C'mon man,do you really think I would bullshit you? We used a lot of different rounds. Just what the hell are you really getting at here,brother?:rofl:
     
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  16. wizard1183

    wizard1183 Premium Member

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    No ball vs stick POWDER. That's what I'm referring to. Double base vs single temp sensitivity. You take ball powder at 70 degree and load a rd and the shoot at 100 degrees? It can be very dangerous. Where as stick isn't as sensitive. Though burns hotter and barrel wear occurs faster
     
  17. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    OOOPS!.. here we go again.
    1. The Army!!.those other guys in pickle suits. No wonder.

    2. Military powders are not available to the general public. How do you know they use H335 ? Do you have documented proof to support your statement ? I would be interested in seeing that next in your response. Post a link.

    3. I think veterans here would not support the notion that the standard issue rounds are not effective at combat distances. I've seen up close just how effective they are. quite effective if being used as they should be.

    Green tips for anti-personal rounds ? Naw..but if you are hiding behind that car door you could be toast. Soft targets, give me about 7 bandos of XM193 ball. You shoot what you want.

    4. Where is your supporting data on your powderer claims ? Should be something you can show us. Most here show some sort of photo or otherwise visual data to support their theory where's yours I look forward to seeing it. Soon.

    I would just advise readers to disregard this posters comments. If he had supporting data, let's see it. you don't by guess and by gosh with this stuff. Your full of Schitt and you know your full of Schitt.

    If you have been loading as you state, you would have written record of load data.
    Why not post some so we can see where you are at ? I'd like to see what you are doing.
    Photos ? Anything on a milk carton..??
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
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  18. bulletproof

    bulletproof aka tarddoggy Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    okay...man,whatever you say.However,in your post you said AMMO,not powder. I must have misunderstood what your were trying to get at. All I know about ball powder is that mine used to come in the ole OD green canister labeled Foot Powder:facepalm::laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
     
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  19. ehb

    ehb Chief Discombobulator Premium Member

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    Prepping cases is good therapy...and funner'n hell to me....

    Takes a while but time flies when you're having fun...

    Crank up Filmore East and go to town....
     
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  20. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Damn straights..
     
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