ideal rate of twist (MLP firearms and shooting thread)

Discussion in 'The Backstage' started by Frogfur, Jul 4, 2017.

  1. Kris Ford

    Kris Ford Senior Member

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    OH YEAH!! The Optivisor!
    EVERYONE on my line wears them.

    My personal set has one of these..great for REALLY getting in there!
    upload_2017-11-9_5-23-58.jpeg

    And just flip it out of the way when not needed. Mine has a #7 lens..and actually have a box from #4 to #10.

    Another INVALUABLE tool I have is an otoscope.
    upload_2017-11-9_5-26-48.jpeg
    One of the engineers gets them from Dr. Mom. the light shines in the hole you need to see, PERFECT for inspecting screw holes, or any other blind spots...(or maybe a good one for out in the woods to keep in your med kit)
     
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  2. Kris Ford

    Kris Ford Senior Member

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    I definitely understand that. I am actually interested in the mount the most..gonna see about just the standard with the QR mount..I don't really need the caps either. One thing with the caps though is that you can close the objective cap, and use it as an Occluded Eye gunsight..that is..you use both eyes, and it transposes the red dot over the target. Most effective for CQB.
    https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/occluded-eye-aiming/
    (the early days of Trijicon..the Armson OEG did just this)

    But if you knew my employee discount on the Patrol...hell..I can remove whatever I want..and still be WAY ahead!!
     
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  3. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Shotguns and legal length. Remember that it is not only the legality of barrel length, but of overall length as well that can get one into trouble in most, if not all states.

    Shotguns employ allot of myths about barrel length. If you fire over a chronograph you'll find that anything over 21" will actually reduce velocity due to friction of the shot wad in the barrel.
    Using magnum shot shells won't help. Often times they prove to be eradic and don't shoot any harder, nor further than standard shells.

    The old timers bought into all that, especially goose and duck hunters believing that the longer the barrel, the further, and harder it would hit, which is why The Marlin bolt action Goose gun had any traction at all.
    The only weak argument being with longer barrels came increased sight distance.
    All horse feathers.

    Whichever brand and model you like is the right one for you. I'm personally an 870 guy, if for no other reason than design features and easy of field stripping. Two pins and the essential guts are in the palm of your hand. Additionally, there are allot of after market accessories for them as well. I also like Mossburg and Ithaca shotguns as well. Winchester also makes beautiful shotguns, but often too rich for my blood.

    The thing you want to look for is ease of maintenance, twin action bars if it is a pump, and length of pull. Twin action bars are very important for the operational safety and reliability of the defence shotgun, because single action bars can bind frequently with just a slight twist of the pump forend, or lack of good maintenance and or lubrication of that critical part.

    Length of pull is also critical because, if it does not fit the shooter properly, then felt recoil will give the impression that your shotgun kicks too hard. A common compliaint, and gives life to old myths that certain shotguns kick harder than others, when in fact felt recoil is dependent on a good fit which helps reduce recoil sensation even more than a good recoil pad.

    Automatic, gas operated shotguns such as the 1100 are not the best choices for a self defense shotgun due to problems with the gas tubes, which if not maintained properly can fail, short stroke etc at the most inconvenient times. Ducks or clay pigeons don't shoot back.

    So when contemplating a defensive shotgun take in some of the above considerations. If the purchase is for hunting soley, then you can look at what feature are best for the intended use.

    Maybe this helps someone. Good shooting!
     
  4. Kris Ford

    Kris Ford Senior Member

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    I'm loving my Mossberg! Froggy is right, LOP is crucial, as is a proper recoil mitigation technique.
     
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  5. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Absolutely! See, be it rifle, Shotgun or M-79. If it does not fit you properly then you shoot in an unnatural way, which can cause discomfort.
    Rob seemed at times, at least in the past where his .270 Winchester apparently was not as pleasing to fire as it once was. Maybe he rectified that, or will.

    When the proper length of pull does not confirm to the shooter, you cannot obtain a proper cheek weld to achieve good eye, sight alignment, and preieved recoil is greater creating the annoyance of slight discomfort. It also may discourage new shooters, which is why they produce youth models as well.

    It can contribute to stock creep, which is why every now and then you see someone get nailed by their scope. Ouch. Talk about feeling weird. Everybody just saw that..

    When your correct length of pull matches, it does several things for the shooter. First off, proper fit positions the the shooter in proper stance, meaning that you cheek weld now more naturally positions your eye in line with your sights, be they scope or iron sights. The rifle also faster to bring to bare, and more naturally in the correct position in your shoulder.

    More importantly it brings the shoulder forward and the shooter in a slightly more forward stance allowing your shoulder to better able to absorb the recoil of your rifle or shotgun, rather than most shooters that stand at somewhat of an off stance firing their long gun with their shoulder slightly angled reward firing that way will increase preieved recoil.

    The opposite of that is those that creep up on the stock when shooting. The reason many shooters stand in a slightly off hand stance is because John Wayne does, but also because it brings the stock just a little closer toward their face as they try and obtain a comfortable sight alignment.

    So when they fit properly they help align the shooter into the proper stance which inturn helps the your shooting, and shooting comfort, because the stock transmits the recoil of the weapon to the shoulder squarely where it can absorb it better, and does.

    Ever see those shooting pro demonstrators how they always seem to be in the proper shooting position, rifle firmly into the shoulder, their forward stance ? They didn't just grab that J.C. Higgins for the event at Ace hardware..
    They have long guns that fit. That solves allot of issues, and sure makes it harder to blame the rifle if you miss.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
  6. Kris Ford

    Kris Ford Senior Member

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    For sure!

    Although LOP isn't 100% optimal for my ol Lady, she has learned the proper stance and recoil mitigation technique (left leg forward, lean into it and rock back with it while trying to rip the gun in half!) and can shoot all the 00 Buck and Remington Express slugs she wants.
     
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  7. Hairless_Ape

    Hairless_Ape Doc Premium Member

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    Sounds like I need a job at Trijicon.


    It's all about personal preference. I'm a Mossberg guy, because I happen to prefer their features. I like the fact that I can replace the ejector myself, and I much rather have a tang safety.

    Though if I ever buy a cruiser style shotgun it will like be a Remington, for that trigger guard safety.
     
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  8. bulletproof

    bulletproof aka tarddoggy Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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  9. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    I like that tac scope.
     
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  10. Kris Ford

    Kris Ford Senior Member

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    I've been doing some tests..I patterned Olin MFG 00 buck (same as Winchester Super X, but in OD green hull), Federal Power Shock 00, and Suprema (a "budget" brand made in Spain, found at Walmart) next time I go out, I'll take pics. But the Suprema holds it own, and actually patterns just as nice..maybe even more preferable of a spread at 21 feet..:hmm:

    It seems that the internet just LOVES the Flite Control stuff..and I have shot it..basically a 50 cent piece size hole at 25 feet..but would it be crazy to think that one, while under stress during home invasion, or attack, might MISS with that?? I want some spread myself.
     
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  11. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Laserlyte shotgun sight..
    20170804_141503.jpg
    I love this thing. Roughly the shot pattern size at any practical distance.
     
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  12. Kris Ford

    Kris Ford Senior Member

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    Sweet!

    Is that a Marshall chassis I see up there?? :D
     
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  13. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    It's my CeriaTone 18 watt built on the JCM800 chassis with a modified power section and a few other mods.
     
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  14. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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  15. SteveC

    SteveC Village Elder V.I.P. Member

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    I love me a good shottie.... I have a Browning Citori 725 Sporting, 32" for Trap & Sporting Clays. I'm not a fam of those stupid-high-rib guns. The Sporting is a great compromise. I also have a Beretta AL391 Synthetic for those poor weather days... best gas gun, ever. IMHO.
     
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  16. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Great minds think alike bilbarstow? LOL, I JUST went through that process and came home Wed with a Springfield Range Officer.

    I tried a Rock Island, a Ruger, Taurus, Colt and the SA RO. Feel, hand fit, my accuracy with it, trigger etc, the Range Officer ran away with it for me. Yea, it's a couple of hundred more than the Rock Island, little more than the Ruger.

    Range Officer comes stock with adjustable rear sight, competition 4 lb pull trigger and match grade barrel and bushing, cocobolo grips, forged match grade slide and frame (same as their TMP model). Same precision fit as the TMP models too.

    Only downside on it is the front site being black along with the rear sight. Fixing that with a little paint.

    I punched almost bullet sized groupings with it at 7 yards, and 2" at 25 yards.
     
  17. cooljuk

    cooljuk Transducer Producer Premium Member MLP Vendor

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    That's really cool! I've got a mini Laserlyte which I sight my pistols and rough-in my rifles with. I had no idea there was a shot-pattern version. I'm gonna put that on my radar, as I've got another Holosun red dot on the way, which will find a home on my 590. I know it probably doesn't need it 90% of the time but I do shoot slugs now and then and it's not adding any weight in the grand scheme of things.

    One thing I've wondered from time to time - My bore sight, itself, has adjustment screws. How would one calibrate it? A "laser bore sighter sighter" perhaps? ...or is that just for factory use? No mention in the manual.
     
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  18. cooljuk

    cooljuk Transducer Producer Premium Member MLP Vendor

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    Also, thanks for the LOP info, Froggy. That's something I've been meaning to learn more about and will revisit some instructional videos on now. I did look into it when setting up my shotgun stock, initially, but have completely forgotten the methodology of how I came to the LOP I used. Worth revisiting for me.
     
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  19. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    LOP IS measured from the face of the trigger to the end of the stock, including any recoil pad.
     
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  20. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    I use a bore laser. Preferably one you can see good in day light, or at the range. I set the rifle/shotgun up on some sort of steady rest and pretty much match them up so the laser sight sits over directly on top of the front bore laser beam. Then adjust the laser sight to sit directly on the tip post rather than on top. From there, i shoot and fine tune the laser until it points directly to where the shots are going. @40ft. This will cover a 30"circle.
    The further away, the bigger the laserlyte gets.
    Pretty easy.
    For shotguns-
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
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