ideal rate of twist (MLP firearms and shooting thread)

Discussion in 'The Backstage' started by Frogfur, Jul 4, 2017.

  1. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Now that's a shotgun post. Outstanding.
    Nice info rob.
     
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  2. LtDave32

    LtDave32 Sua Sponte Super Mod Premium Member

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  3. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Rob, why not just get a cheap, junk barrel in any caliber and go at it..?
     
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  4. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Damn straights.
     
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  5. cooljuk

    cooljuk Transducer Producer Premium Member MLP Vendor

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    In case anyone is strongly interested in the problem with my 590 I mentioned above, I found the photos I took of it.

    What was happening was two things. One, the cartridge stop was bent into too much of a curve. It's supposed to be bent a little, so it can rock back and forth, but it was bent to such a great degree that allowed it to move in FRONT (inside side) of the left side action bar as the slide was brought back, instead of the slanted tab on the cartridge stop guiding the cartridge stop BEHIND the action bar, as it's supposed to. This caused FTFs by preventing cartridges in the magazine to be enter the elevator.

    [​IMG]

    You can see how this prevented cartridges from feeding.
    [​IMG]
    It was starting to mar up the guide on the action bar, also.
    [​IMG]

    The second problem was that the ejector screw was not Lok-Tited or staked or whatever they are supposed to do at the factory to keep it in place. It fell out into the action and so did the ejector, while I was troubleshooting the cartridge stop, and did so in such a way that it got jammed along side the bolt assembly, making it a real PITA to take things apart.
    [​IMG]

    Mossberg rush shipped (though not overnight, as they had promised) me a new ejector, ejector screw, cartridge stop, cartridge interrupter, and action slide assembly. They made the good effort. Unfortunately, the new cartridge interrupter had the exact same problem of being bent to too great of a degree that it would lodge itself inside the action bar. I don't know what Mossberg has done for the others who had this problem (over 100k Google results for "Mossberg 590 failure to feed") since they were familiar with it but the new parts didn't solve it.

    In my case, an arbor press to straighten out the bend on the interrupter was all I needed. Probably approaching 1000 rounds of all types through it, after my repair, at this point with zero failures. I've shot it in freezing temps and gotten it plenty warm in the summer. It took a while, but it's earned my trust now.
     
  6. cooljuk

    cooljuk Transducer Producer Premium Member MLP Vendor

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    btw - congratulations Roberteaux, on your 300bk purchase. Welcome to the dark side! ...and I totally get what your long-haired acquaintance meant by wanting a SBR version with a can. It's a great caliber for that setup, both the short barrel and the suppressor. I'm building my second 300 blackout on paper now and the only reason I haven't done my Form 1 is because I have a move coming up, which may take me to a neighboring state and I want that sorted out before paying for a tax stamp. ...not that I would move to a non-free state but that I don't want it to leave the state, have the stamp come in, then have the can shipped to another FFL and pay the fee again.
     
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  7. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    The biggest news here for me was that you diagnosed the problem correctly and addressed it yourself. You couldnt have asked for a better lesson than that. Outstanding! I like that.
     
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  8. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Wyoming ?
     
  9. Roberteaux

    Roberteaux GOOMPH! V.I.P. Member

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    Well... :hmm:

    I reckon that just working on some junky barrel would be really good for allowing me to see how much pressure to use while bearing in with the stone and all... I saw that guy from Wilson saying that you do have to kind of use some pressure, there. Not too much, but it wants a bit of pushin'... :hmm:

    But I might still go with what I've got when it comes time to play with barrels, since I have the frame as well and will be able to see whether or not I'm doing things correctly. That is, if the sucker works right, I'll be thinking that I did things right...

    This kind of stuff is always a gamble. But I'm seeing that I can get replacement parts inexpensively enough that it's not that big a gamble.

    I am encouraged by the words of the rocket scientist, Wernher von Braun, who once said:

    "Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing."

    So I guess it will soon be time for me to do a little research. :laugh2:

    Again, however: I'm gonna start by doing a simple polish job on the feed ramp. Who knows? That alone might cause the Rock .45 to change its dietary habits. I was looking into this question last night and found more than one person saying that they got away without throating the barrel at all...

    We'll find out, eh? Stay tuned! :thumb:

    --R :thumb:
     
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  10. cooljuk

    cooljuk Transducer Producer Premium Member MLP Vendor

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    Perhaps, or Utah. The owner of the property I rent for my home and shop (same landlord) was bought out by another company that won't renew my lease when it's up. They are converting the property to something else. In just the 3 years or so that I've been living in Colorado, prices have skyrocketed. My rent's gone up $500 since I've been here and would go up another $400 if I stayed in the area at a similar property. It's damn expensive! ...I know, in part, because of folks like me moving here from the East Coast but you can imagine why I would do such a thing, I'm sure (not the weed, but the freedom).

    The only reason, which was somewhat heartbreaking, that my wife and I will likely NOT move to Wyoming, is that she is in school, getting her Dental Hygiene degree and Wyoming has outlawed Campus Carry on a state level. I was totally shocked to find that out, being that Wyoming has such fantastic gun laws in every other regard. For that reason, we are likely looking at St George, Utah (Southwest corner, about 45 min from Vegas), if we can find an appropriate property. We have several months until the move so it's still a bit early to be looking for rental properties.

    We are still open to staying here if we can find a suitable property, but there are only three schools in Colorado that offer the degree my wife is pursuing and the locations of all three are less than ideal, in one way or another, so the move out of state is likely. Perhaps we'll come back to somewhere on the Western Slope after she gets her degree. We do love it, here.
     
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  11. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    I wouldn't suggest it if I didn't know you can do it. Easy job. Once you get into it you'll be touring how easy it was to do.
    :thumb:
     
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  12. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    A Bug:
    The standard recoil spring for a 1911 Government model in .45acp Rob is 18lbs.
    Don't listen to that suggestion of 20 - 22 or even 24lbs springs to solve reliability issues.
    If The pistol is unreliable enough that it jams, we need to find out why(not your case)but in some. A heavier spring is the wrong way to go.
    Too heavy of a spring in this gun will cause stove piping if you try and hammer the rounds into submission. Competition shooter use springs as light as 10 - 11 or 12 lb. springs.
     
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  13. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Utah is gun restrictive but Wyoming is rated as the most heavily armed of the 50 states.
    Gun freedom up there.

    Thermopopulis is beautiful. I might end up up there. Rim rock country and hunting galore.
     
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  14. Roberteaux

    Roberteaux GOOMPH! V.I.P. Member

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    Thanks! :thumb:

    The suppressed/subsonic thing really is an interesting kind of setup. The thing I found most striking was the very heavy weight of the projectiles used in that particular application. My supersonic stuff is 125 grain... but the suppressed loadings tend to feature bullets of up to 225+ grains, and the kid told me there are guys out there taking deer and hogs with such rifles and cartridges. When I asked him what kind of distances these hunters were shooting at, he replied that he mostly heard about distances of about 50-100 yards.

    I was a bit surprised by this. I didn't realize that the subsonics had that kind of reach going for them. I would have guessed that 50 yards would be the max, but the kid said that the cartridge type remains practical to a bit beyond beyond 100 yards, but then drops like a stone.

    But then: I don't hunt and I'm kind of working within a particular budget. I didn't expect to pick up this .300 BLK upper, either-- kinda thought I'd be buying reloading components. But then: I have enough stuff stockpiled and on hand right now that I can go for longer without fretting that my supplies are running low. To get hooked up with a suppressed SBR wouldn't be good for my wallet right now... especially not with this shotgun purchase looming in the near future...

    Discipline. I must have discipline! :facepalm:

    But hey: I'm happy. I still have a major project involving a bolt action rifle ahead of me, loading for this new cartridge promises to be very interesting, and then there's that .45 barrel I might be about to ruin... :laugh2:

    I see that this business of dealing with paperwork might prove to be annoying, and I'm still wondering if the Hearing Protection Act might not go through, simplifying everything.

    But it is all very interesting, I think... :hmm:

    Discipline!

    --
    R :laugh2:
     
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  15. cooljuk

    cooljuk Transducer Producer Premium Member MLP Vendor

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    What's gun restrictive about UT? Guns and ammo rated it #4 in best overall gun laws and #2 in concealed carry. Wyoming was rated #6 overall and #5 in concealed carry. Both good options. Those ratings are from 2015 though, and it's just one source, so maybe something has changed or I'm overlooking something.

    The thorn in my side about WY is that they have banned campus carry at a state level and my wife will be spending most of her time over the next 4 years or so on campus. I might even like to take a welding or machine shop class at the local community college, wherever we end up, so that matter is important to us. On the contrary, UT, at a state level, has deemed that campus cary is a constitutional right and that colleges and higher education institutions have no authority to regulate it.

    Twin Falls, ID is on the radar, also.
     
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  16. cooljuk

    cooljuk Transducer Producer Premium Member MLP Vendor

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    btw - I've been sort of watching those DIY 1911 videos in the background while working. VERY cool stuff!

    The guy does metal work in flip flops! :shock:
     
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  17. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Twin Falls is nice. I use to shoot over there with Steve Herrett. Check out the falls going into town. Nice. Seems carrying on campus is important to you.
     
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  18. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Well now everyone has come out, I'm just about to jump on a new upper.
    Either a10.5" bbl complete upper in 9mm,
    Or a new Radical Arms, almost complete 10.5" 5.56mm with the forward gas system.
    I'm really leaning toward the 9mm.
    That 9mm upper would be perfect for my Fast Fire 3.
    2017-09-27-17-04-57.jpg
    2017-09-27-17-08-55.jpg
    That is just super sexy in 9mm.

    So out of my boys Beretta 9mm, we are shooting 115gr JHP at around 1150fps. Good, useable load.
    Out of this barrel i should be able to achieve a significant improvement with a velocity of between 1257fps and 1375fps? Id n know if i go that route.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
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  19. Roberteaux

    Roberteaux GOOMPH! V.I.P. Member

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    Are you still thinking of picking up a 6.5 Grendel? :hmm:

    I kinda-sorta hope so. I was thinking it would be interesting to see what you made of the cartridge.

    But don't listen to Greedy Robert: he just wants you to go with this Grendel stuff so he can see what somebody he actually knows has to say about it... and while you're at it, would you mind picking up a 6.8 SPC so that I can learn more about that one too? :naughty:

    I've read that the Grendel round is a very good one, but saw that some guys wrote about bolt lugs cracking under the strain of firing the cartridge. One commentator said that people who are using 6.5 Grendel for accuracy matches consider the occasional bolt replacement to simply be the cost of doing business with that particular cartridge. More than one guy said that it was probably a better idea to just build an AR-10 and set it up for .308...

    And then there's that whole debate concerning 6.8 SPC vs. 6.5 Grendel. While plowing along and studying those cartridges, I found that there's a legion of fan-boys out there who wish to bicker endlessly whereas the largely meaningless question "which one is better?" is concerned. Figures, though.

    Interesting, that the 6.8 is a .277 bullet, too. But that's just me daydreaming about doing weird stuff with .277 bullets... or rather, watching as you do weird stuff with 'em! :laugh2:

    You know the Internet: lots of Wizards out there, and quite often they seem to talk simply for the sake of talking, whether or not they have anything useful or interesting to say... and 's whether or not they know what they're talking about to begin with! :facepalm:

    Which is why I was hoping to see what you had to say about 6.5 Grendel, should you have decided to go that route.

    But of course, I recommend nothing here... I figure that you know what you're doing better than I ever will... :)

    --R :D
     
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  20. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Proprietary cartridges are interesting as all get out. They are usually developed to fill some need not currently being met from commercial manufacturing. Much of the time they are a cut above the rest and frequently adopted later on by the major ammunition manufacturers and achieve commercial status after following a developmental path. A great example would be the .375 H&H Magnum.

    One that would be of interest to AR fans, but few know of it, is the .257 Raptor. This is a very practical wildcat based on the .204 Ruger case. It would be in the same league as say the 25-35 winchester but in a smaller package, and being rimless it can work in a rather wide range of rifles, including the
    AR-15. This would be capable of taking medium sized game, including hogs.

    The dope:
    With an 85gr. Nosler, Balistic tip at 2539fps and energy levels up at 1,216ft.lbs it a ween'r!
    OACL: 1.860
     
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