ideal rate of twist (MLP firearms and shooting thread)

Discussion in 'The Backstage' started by Frogfur, Jul 4, 2017.

  1. Kris Ford

    Kris Ford Senior Member

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  2. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    If they are, we are all in trouble. The military uses Mossburg shotguns. Kris, that shotgun is fine. The main thing to look for are double action bars on the pump. Single action bars work ok but can bind with improper technique.
    Nothing wrong with Mossburg.
     
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  3. Cozmik Cowboy

    Cozmik Cowboy Senior Member

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    Talked to my son in AK yesterday; a friend of his is "going South", as they say up there - took David to his storage container & said "help yourself".
    Among the stuff he got (for free, mind you) were a drill press and....an AK clone in .308, with a full 50-round drum mag.
    I look forward to my next visit..........
     
  4. Kris Ford

    Kris Ford Senior Member

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    Right on Larry..just hear a lot of BS ..I appreciate the straight scoop.
     
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  5. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Robert, here is about the best video avaliable on the barrel feed ramp. Not everything here is applicable to your ramp. Take what you need and leave the rest.

    People have always bitched about the .45 acp jamming. Always.There is a certain amout of truth to these critisms. First off, gun writers themselves are somewhat to blame for this notion that heavily customized .45 caps are the bee's knees. And a certain amount of customization is necessary to make them function correctly.

    #1 reason - incompetent customization.
    Most of the things you can have done are simply a waste of your money. There are a few things that can be done that are not expensive, but most shooters should simply leave them alone.
    Only with a strong appreciation for its strong points, and weak points, will the user be able to get the most from their .45s.
    There are a few reasons. Why they screw up - the above and:

    #2 inappropriate ammo.

    #3 lack of lubrication.

    #3 cheap magazines.

    #4 flaws in the basic designs.

    #5 A general propensity toward small, breakable parts.

    Don't hand it over to your local hack-slash artist. There are just not that many good pistol Smith's out there. Sorry..butta..Truth.
    Until about a decade ago, customizing your 1911 was a fantastic idea, and made more sense than today.

    A decade ago, these were setup by the factory to feed hardball only. If you buy a straight G.I. model today, that could still be the case. Sights were horrible, trigger pulls might, or might not be extremely stiff and heavy.

    Today's gun comes out of the box hollow point compatible with a throat job, Decent, high visibility sights, beavertail safety grip, beveled mag wells, lowered ejection ports etc. Most are very good to excellent. What the hell more do you want?

    Don't modify the trigger pull! Guns with lessened hammer/sear engagement, steel triggers and heavy recoil springs, Instead of staying cocked so you can fire the next shot the hammer follows the slide down and falls to half cock could be the result.

    You almost never see this on a stock gun.
    You see this more on guns sent to incompetent pistolsmiths.
    When the slide slams forward into battery the heavy steel triggers want to remain in place (inertia)you guys, so the trigger wants to stay in place, but it actually moved back in its track.
    If the hammer/sear has been compromised, by taking too much metal, or changing the angle of the hammer hooks, the trigger can bounce enough to jostile the hammer hooks and sear out of engagement, causing your hammer to fall to half cock.
    * this also happens to older guns with military spec parts have been substituted for colt parts. Remember, the 1911 was designed to chamber a round with the slide moving forward at full speed.

    ** if you keep a .45 for home self-defense with the hammer down on an empty chamber, always rack the slide swiftly to chamber a round to prevent a failure to feed. NEVER HOLD THE TRIGGER TO THE REAR WHILE DROPPING THE SLIDE!
    I consider this a very dangerous practice.

    Shooters seem to want to stuff everything imaginable into their 1911s and then seem amazed when it doesn't feed reliably. Avoid wishful thinking first off.

    The 1911 is not as tolerant as some more modern designs in terms of the range of bullet profiles that it can(will)reliably feed.
    Remember, it was designed from the start to feed hardball, so no matter what you do, there is no way around that.

    So what I can tell you is that the further away your gun departs from a hardball profile, the more trouble you are asking for. Make feed reliability a main priority when selecting .45 ammo.

    Hollow points that feature a rounded, hardball type of ogive are more feed reliable than the flat nose, truncated-cone or semi-wad cutter design shape.
    The .45 acp is a short, fat cartridge which is not the most feed reliable cartridge profile to start with. Again, it was designed from the ground up to feed hardball. Anything else is just asking for jams.

    Some think stopping power is the main consideration. NO..NO..NO. The primary consideration is feed-reliability! Even if your bullet has deeper penetration(or lack of) a one shot stop power ain't no damn good if your wonder round is hung up on the feed ramp..right ? Well fucking Doh!
    * if stopping power is the name of the game, the .45 seems to be quite forgiving in terms of load selection. If those are the traits you deem reliable, all that doesn't do any good if your jammed up.

    If your piece hasn't been lubricated in about 3 days it's bone dry! Oil evaporates. If you carry your weapon muzzle down in a holster, gravity pulls the oil down the slide rails, around the bushings and out of the gun. In my experience, Teflon based products don't work any better. Just voodoo. Every few days take some time and lubricate the 1911.

    *proper lubrication-
    Unload the gun, lock the slide to the rear, put a small drip of oul on the slide rails and allow the slide to move into battery.
    Put a thin coat of oil on the exposed barrel where it rides the bushing when the gun is cylicing and on the barrel hood and cycle a few times and you are in business.
    DO a better job when you field strip the gun.

    Magazines. You pay $500-$750.00 for a .45acp then but cheap magazines to feed that beast ? Really ? No on 8 round magazines too. There is a reason.
    The 8 round mags are designed for competition but have problems.
    The very best mags out there are the Wilson-Rogers design, bar none.

    Problems I will go into later if you wish.
    Those include the slide stop, extractors, barrel bushing/recoil spring plug.
    The plunger tube etc.

    Rob, knowing how anal you are about your weapons, and cleaning some of this for you is just the gift of gab.

    Hope no misspelling. I'm not reviewing all that crap.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
  6. smk506

    smk506 Senior Member

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    Take a good look at the specs, some of the mossbergs use plastic trigger group housings as well if I'm not mistaken.
     
  7. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Only for a few reasons. Simple disassembly, lots of add on money wasters and double action bars.
     
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  8. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Everything is plastic these days. That would not effect my decession although it might for some. Let's verify that. If plastic was an issue Glocks would be dead in the water. I have no interest in them but some love them. For me to smile, I need an all steel firearm.
     
  9. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    If you like them, dont let anyone talk you out of one. For combat, hot weapons they sure serve a purpose. But otherwise, spend that money on shotgun shells.
     
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  10. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    Kris, if you do get that shotgun we wanna see cool. Be sure and show us when you get time.
    :dude:
     
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  11. cooljuk

    cooljuk Transducer Producer Premium Member MLP Vendor

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    That's a "Maverick 88" right? Those have the safety in the 870/Daisy location on the trigger guard, rather than the typical 500 location on the top. I think that, and that some parts are not exchangeable with standard aftermarket or factory 500 series parts, are the main physical differences. The warranty is also different, if that concerns you.

    When I bought my last Mossy (a 590) it had some little problems out of the box (little, as in it wouldn't cycle rounds, at all!). Mossberg was cool (as they should be, considering this was somewhat common) and sent me a bunch of replacement action parts. Turns out the replacement parts had the same problem and I ended up fixing the issue by modding my original parts. The point of that is that I now have all the goodies to convert a Maverick 88 to a 500 (minus the trigger group/safety) and allow it to take aftermarket parts. So, I'll be picking up an 88, myself, for a truck gun next time I head down to my favorite local shop for something. ...that is, if I can avoid the temptation of a Shockwave.
     
  12. ramaglia375

    ramaglia375 Premium Member

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    A 300 BO upper minus bcg for $199? Damn! That's a no brainer there, good score
     
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  13. Seven

    Seven Senior Member

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    Love the 590A1.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Hack

    Hack Senior Member

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  15. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    I wanted to add a note to the above post on feed issues with the 1911. The main thing Rob can do that would assist him and, even if it don't it will look impressive as hell!

    That would be simply polish his feed ramp as in last night's simple, but good Wilson example. The reason being, if you noticed that with the slide locked back, a loaded magazine(best done with dummies)hopefully you shooters are using these to test cycling function.

    What you see is a slightly upward cant to the top csrtridge. Appears it would launch right on in there dont it. What actually happens is, when the cartridge is picked up by the blast shield of the slide and moved forward, it actually takes a bit of a nose dive as it starts to exit the magazine feed lips and slams into the feed ramp and in a perfect world slips right up into the chamber smoothly.

    Unfortunately what actually causes problems are such things as tool marks left from the manufacturing process, non-uniform, improper forging and stuff like that.

    You can't see it for the most part, but it there and it sure won't do any harm to polish and smooth that area up and is a beneficial addition to smooth functionality, and that would be my recommendation.

    Lastly, its good to keep things light hearted here. One of the reasons this area functions well. But we don't do incomplete here otherwise it serves no purpose.

    That was why I went into detail about feed issues with the 1911. If you realize that there are a number of design features that cannot be over come, but some that can be improved upon, you better understand more why these guns do what they do. If you understand what they do and why, you now understand what to do about it without wasting times or resources. There is a simplistic view by many that it's the gun, the ammo etc etc. Blame it on anything but reality.

    I could have said just that in two paragraphs, oh its the ammo, probably the damn gun.
    But that would have been a dis-service to your issue.
    i would have past on a post that wasn't worth a tinkers damn. We don't operate like that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
  16. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    That is simply badass..
     
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  17. cooljuk

    cooljuk Transducer Producer Premium Member MLP Vendor

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    That's a leopard hunting rifle, right? One dot for every spot?
     
  18. Hack

    Hack Senior Member

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    I like it!
     
  19. Roberteaux

    Roberteaux Alien Hominid V.I.P. Member

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    You mean you ain't got one right now? Forsooth! :eek:

    Just bustin', Kris... these things happen the way they happen. But in my personal case, a shotgun is the firearm I'm grabbing if Mr. Burglar decides to come along and pay a visit to my home.


    I mainly grew up shooting either a single-shot J.C. Higgins 12-gauge given to me by my grandfather, or dad's Browning Automatic 5 (when he'd let me, anyway). But in my service years I was issued the Win M12 on those occasions in which I was detailed to provide security to a motor pool adjacent to our battalion's area on Ft. Bragg. I always liked the model a lot-- very sturdy and dependable. They had us loaded up with OO buck.

    ***************​

    As for the Rem 870: in my cop years, we could select our own sidearm and could carry anything above 9mmP or .38Spl. (provided that we could qualify with our choice), but the shotguns and rifles were department-issued items. The shotgun VCSO selected as its standard issue was the 870 Remington. I quickly learned to like that shotgun just as much as I liked the Model 12's. Both are excellent choices.

    [​IMG]

    At the Daytona gun show I just attended, I found a table that was chock-full of 870's. Had to be a dozen or so of them, all in 12-gauge and all with 18" barrels. The guy selling wanted $189 bucks for a beaded barrel model, and $199 for models that had slug sights on them. The chokes were all cylinder, which is probably the best choke for buck and slugs anyway. All were in very good to excellent condition.

    So, while I'm not sure about the cost of a Model 12 in military configuration, I'd bet that you can probably get your hands on a good 870 at a very reasonable price... and that's a hard gun to beat. Never had one let me down.

    At this moment, my shotgun of choice is a Browning Pump Shotgun, or BPS:

    [​IMG]

    I like this one a lot because it ejects from the bottom of the receiver instead of out the starboard side, as is the case with a lot of shotguns. Being a lefty, I sometimes have issues with firearms that eject to the right. I've got all kinds of little scars on my neck from shooting M16A1's in the service and having hot casings going down my shirt collar in back. Ouch! :laugh2:

    But if you're prone to trip on stuff, you might wish to go with a side-ejection model of some sort instead of this BPS. Those shells land just in front of one's feet. Probably not a big deal in the field, but on the floor of one's house I can see that it might cause problems for some.

    The thing is double-railed from the factory-- never had it malfunction in any way. The poly stock is nice, too... but it's not an absolutely perfect fit, exactly. If you know what "proud wood" is when spoken of with regard to stock fittings, then be advised that this has a touch of "proud plastic" going where the stock meets the receiver.

    But then: I didn't purchase it as a display item. It's a tool, and I won't be unduly concerned if some asshole home invader finds himself being hammered with a load of buck from a firearm that is not of highest craftsmanship and aesthetic appeal. He doesn't deserve curly maple and fine engraving to begin with, so for the moment this gun still works for me.

    BUT: this thing has a 20" barrel, which can become a considerable liability if you have to horse it around in tight areas in your house and are not in the habit of carrying it with the pistol grip and trigger hand welded to your floating rib. You also have to know how to clear corners with the firearm, putting it back on point instantly, and it's best to know how to retain the weapon should somebody attempt to seize and wrest it from one's hands.

    I'm good at that sort of thing-- or at least, once upon a time I was good at it. I was trained to do that sort of stuff by the sheriff's department I worked for, and have actually carried 870's into houses, barns, and what-not while serving arrest and search warrants on more than one occasion. But now I'm getting to an age where I'm not so sure of my ability to fight back, and am no longer as fast or hard-hitting as I was when I was a young buck.

    So now I'm about to go with something shorter... and even nastier.

    Here's what my next shotgun is going to be... behold the ugly-ass Mossberg Shockwave:

    [​IMG]

    This thing is really bitchin'. Although it features a 14.5" barrel, this is NOT an NFA weapon and it can be had for about 300 bucks and change. You get one round in the snout and five in the magazine if you go with 2 3/4" shells... and there's no reason not to use such shells if you're contemplating shooting inside your house. The shotgun chamber and magazine will also accept 3" magnum shells, but holds only four of these longer cartridges in the tube.

    I wouldn't use 3" magnums for home defense, though. All doing so would do is cut down on the number of rounds you have in your gun, along with ensuring greater (and probably unwanted) penetration of things like walls and such. There goes dad's old cuckoo clock! :facepalm:

    Be advised, however: you do have to check with your state's laws to find out if it's legal where you live. Again, this is not an NFA weapon whereas federal law is concerned, and in Florida it's legal because of the overall length being a touch over 26", but I've read that it's not legal in every state. So check, if you're interested in this one.

    I'm attracted to the Damned Thing because it would be perfect for the very short ranges in which it is likely to be used. I don't see myself carting it to the range except for familiarization fire. The thing features a horrendous muzzle blast and the barrel does want to climb-- hence the hand strap affixed to the pump grip. But it would be way easier to get around inside my house with this thing than to carry on with that big Browning I'm currently relying on.

    And so I'm just about to go ahead and buy one of these Mossbergs. You'll be seeing a post concerning it soon enough.

    As for shotguns in general: I've never really met one that I didn't like, except for a bolt-action 10-gauge Marlin that was ridiculously long, heavy, and unpleasant to fire. I've never owned a really fancy shotgun of any type, with even dad's A5 being kind of a plain Jane. But so far as I'm concerned, Mossberg, Ithaca, Remintgon, Winchester, and Browning shotguns are all just fine with me. I've never experienced a malfunction while firing any of those.

    When it comes to wifey: have you considered stepping down to 20-gauge? Though the 20's hold a smaller amount of pellets per cartridge and the slugs are lighter than the brutes used in a 12-gauge, the velocity of the projectiles is the same speed as what you get out of a 12-gauge. Meanwhile, Mr. Burglar may not notice the difference between being hit with 20 pellets of #3 buck out of a 20-gauge and being hit with 24 of 'em out of a 12 gauge.

    [​IMG]

    Of course, your lady might not be particularly recoil-sensitive... especially if she's adrenalized to hell because some scumbag decided to break into your home. At such times as those, she's not likely to feel a damned thing while firing a 12-gauge... but you need to familiarize her with firing it, and for sure she's gonna notice recoil when you do.

    I tend to recommend 20-gauge to ladies who dislike the harder kick of the 12-gauge. I'm a firm believer that confidence in one's weapons adds to proficiency in most cases. So maybe she'd like a 20 better... :hmm:

    I tend to use #4 buck for home defense, incidentally. In a 2 3/4" 12-gauge shotgun, this load amounts to 21 pellets of about .24 caliber. I use this stuff instead of something like 00 or 000 buckshot because I'm concerned about penetration. While #4 will indeed pass through drywall and such, it won't pass through quite so much as the bigger pellets do, and is not likely to make it to the outer walls of either of my neighbor's homes.

    Some have opined that buckshot below 00 doesn't penetrate enough to stop a burglar. I shake my head with wonderment at this, seeing as #4 buck is often used to take deer in Florida-- and at ranges well beyond those involved in a home shooting to boot. And because one of my late buddies was the Chief Death Investigator for the 7th Circuit Medical Examiner's Office here in Florida, I once had an opportunity to take a gander at somebody who caught a full load of #4 buck fired out of a 20-gauge from about 15' away.

    Mr. Homeowner nailed Mr. Burglar right in the chest with that stuff, and the results were enough to drop the felon instantly. Very nasty-looking corpse. Most of the pellets didn't fully penetrate his body, either. Guess drilling through the sternum slowed them down some.

    Here's a weird one, though: one time my pal-- the late John M. Gaston-- dealt with a case where a guy committed suicide with a shotgun. The deceased held the barrel a few inches under his jaw, and squeezed himself out just like that. The shell was a #8 bird shot load, and when John asked me to guess what the results were I figured it probably blew the top of his skull off and left pellets in the ceiling.

    So then I was given a look at the suicide victim, and man... what a godawful mess. But what was weird was this: only 1 pellet actually exited the top of his skull! For sure, his head never before looked like the blob it became after he shot himself, but all but that one pellet actually remained inside his skull along with the wad. Unreal.

    ***************​

    Be absolutely sure to discuss procedures if she ever finds the need to grab a gun. For sure, she should dial 911 first if possible, even if she hasn't got time to talk to the dispatcher. Just leave the line open: they'll send a cop or two around just to see what the call was about if nobody starts talking. Also, take her around the house with the gun in her mitts, so she can see what areas she can safely cover with the weapon without having to actually enter them herself, and point out all areas she can take physical cover behind, which she should do because the burglar might also be armed. Make sure she also realizes that defending her life takes priority way above defending property that might be taken from the house.

    Last-- but certainly not least-- make damned sure that she knows the laws of self-defense as they are written in your state. I don't know if you guys have the Castle Doctrine in effect as it is in Florida, or what sort of liability might be incurred after shooting somebody in your house. In Florida's version of the law, for somebody having simply entered the house at all (whether armed or not), the homeowner is given the lawful right to presume that the intruder is a form of "deadly force" in and of himself. Also, there's also no civil recourse available to an intruder shot during a burglary or home invasion, and even his family cannot sue if the shooting was legal. The limiting factor is that Florida won't let you get away with back-shooting a burglar who goes running out the door after you crop a gun on his stupid ass. For that, you'll definitely go to prison yourself down here.

    None of this is the case in all fifty states. So, make certain that both of you know the laws to perfection, and I'd even suggest you take the time to familiarize yourself with recent cases of armed self defense in your area before you come up with a plan or outline of what you'll do if some jackass breaks in on you guys.

    Best of luck. Can't resist the urge to bust on you one more time not having a shotgun, though...

    Eh! Whassamatta you? :slap:

    --Rob :D
     
  20. Roberteaux

    Roberteaux Alien Hominid V.I.P. Member

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    Thanks for the pointers, Larry! :thumb:

    I'm gonna go ahead and polish that feed ramp tonight. After that, I'll see if it makes a difference in feeding the hollow point stuff I have sitting around.

    I won't be disappointed if the pistol is still finicky about ammo, though. That 230-grain military ball has been doing the trick for over 100 years now, and it's not as if I'd be without confidence if I was forced to use the weapon with that as the load at hand.

    I checked out the business of throating the barrel and see that this will be a bit trickier than simply polishing the feed ramp. Still, I'm likely to actually give it a crack after studying the method a little longer, though, especially since I see that I can get replacement barrels for my .45 easily and inexpensively enough.

    In much the same way, I ruined a couple of Harley-Davidson valve seats while learing to lap valves... and once completely destroyed a head by cracking it while attempting to remove a valve guide. These are simply dues, but so long as they're not insufferably high I am curious enough to give it a whirl. :D

    I figure that it would be nice to get the gun to devour most any ammunition, even if I don't find it to be quite precisely necessary.

    I'm kinda dumb that way. :laugh2:

    Again, thanks for your input! :thumb:

    --Rob :D
     
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