How Does One Get that Nice Green/Grey Fade Color?

Discussion in 'Luthier's Corner' started by ExNihilo, Jan 13, 2011.

  1. ExNihilo

    ExNihilo Senior Member

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    Hello Everyone,

    I was wondering if someone here can share their knowledge on how to spray an aniline burst that, when it fades, will have that green/grey shade. Like this:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The idea I have in my head is:

    1. Shoot the yellow
    2. Shoot a very light burst coat of aniline blue (which will make green)
    3. Shoot a brown aniline burst coat
    4. Shoot some red on top of the brown (to make a deep cherry)
    5. Fade to taste. :)

    Does this sound like it would work?

    Thanks for the info.
     
  2. gator payne

    gator payne Senior Member

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    multiple dyed finish colors sprayed over each other. Always starting with the lightest color over all the body then layering on from light to dark along the edges. Most burst use 3 basic transparent colors the ones in your photos is commonly called a Tea burst it uses only 2 colors but the darker color is applied in a graduating pigment saturation. meaning ther is more pigment at the extrem edge tha wher the darker color first starts,
     
  3. dougk

    dougk Senior Member

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    Think about how this was done originally: ie they sprayed their burst and it faded PLUS the lacquer has ambered considerably.

    So start with that, shoot the burst as normal though with a browner mixed (and light on material) bursted edge. Then shoot heavily tinted clear coat over it (you can add a tinge of green at that stage though personally I just don't see the green'ish hue).

    Keep in mind that if there is blue dye in that burst, you don't really have to add "green" simply add yellow tinted lacquer.
     
  4. gator payne

    gator payne Senior Member

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    more than one way to skin the cat.

    All three replys get there

    But anytime you do a burst you must have a good understanding of how the combination of tints create varing colors (eg yellow and blue make green ect) with transparent aniline dyes you see previous layers through thee newer layers to build a new color. saturation of pigment will also come into play (eg the percentage of pigment to th4e percentage of carrier media. I use to have a three color wheel smade up of translucent mylar sheets. It was nice for layering to to understand how to builld transitional layering.
     
  5. ExNihilo

    ExNihilo Senior Member

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    You can use any paint program with layers to do this too.

    I don't have difficulty with mixing colors. I have a lot of experience with color theory (my mother, Gail Wilkinson, was a famous porcelain artist). I also understand how to spray a burst.

    My question is one about how to do it so that the fade will produce the green/gray. I am wondering if there is anyone who has actually achieved the green/gray who could explain how they did it. ... Someone like Dave Johnson. :)

    Is there a particular brand of aniline that causes the blue to hang around more? Do you shoot in layers (like my idea in the OP)? Or is it a one color burst?

    If any of you have produced a fade that has the green/gray, please post some pictures. Thanks again!
     
  6. gator payne

    gator payne Senior Member

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    most aniline dyes are about the same but ther are various hues of blue ranging from cordova blue to cobalt blue. the percentage of dye to carrier can create many other hues. I have never done a green to gray but it is doable .

    yes typically bursts are done in layers. the lighter color over the whole body and the feathering in the boundrys with the progressivly darker hues. but when saying layers the fim thickness is not substantial. clear top coats are commonly sprayed over the burst.

    Feathering is typically achaived by adjutments to the percentage of air to media controls on the gun along with air pressure varibles and the distance from nozzel to target surface. pretty much the same way air brush artist do it but on a larger scale.
     
  7. Kim

    Kim MLP Vendor

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    The greening that we see on a faded burst comes from the un faded minuscule particles of blue pigment in the cherry color.
    When the reds fade out those blue pigments are all that is left and blue over yellow give greening effect.
     
    nicolasrivera likes this.
  8. Kølabrennern

    Kølabrennern Senior Member

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    Scott, the guitar you built for me has since its arrival here ambered some and faded a tiny little bit. At least the red has made way for more of a honey colour tone. And to my eyes, it's also got a slightly greenish hue to it. Might just be my eyes playing tricks on me though, did you mix any blue in the dyes?

    Starting to check in the dry Norwegian winter, too. :thumb:
     
  9. ExNihilo

    ExNihilo Senior Member

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    Yep. I always mix blue, red, and a tiny bit of yellow to get the cherry color. I was just wondering if it would work better if I sprayed the colors in separate layers rather than one premixed colour. Glad to hear some of that subtle shade appeared on yours. :applause:
     
  10. nuance97

    nuance97 Premium Member

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    These are two examples of my favorite green/gray fades before and after. I have zero experience spraying bursts, but just going off these two examples I'd guess you'd want to start off with a dark burst with a lot of blue. I mean these two were borderline purple before they were faded.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    and
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  11. bfcg

    bfcg Senior Member

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    :thumb:
    Red is alway the first to fade away.
    What once hid behind it will soon be revealed.

    You guy's should really have a look at some of ex-nihilo's bursts.
     
  12. ExNihilo

    ExNihilo Senior Member

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    Thanks, That makes sense. I love the fade on these.

    Are these called Brock bursts?

    BTW, how did he get the clear coat to amber so quickly?
     
  13. Cpt_Gonzo

    Cpt_Gonzo Senior Member

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    Interesting this topic comes up now.

    Look at Burst 9_1945.
    My Bulldog will be in that color.
    The Luthier who does the Lacquer job said the very same thing, the blue of the cherry red "reacted" with the yelllowing of the lacquer.
    I think this brown-ish Burst is by far the nicest color for Les Pauls.

    Nuance 97,
    who built/ refinished the two guitars you posted?
     
  14. gator payne

    gator payne Senior Member

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    Wow. I have son 40 guitars that I did redish bursts on in the last 12 years. Not one of them have faded anywhere near that much at leat the ones I see regularly.

    I can tell these are the same guitar by tracing the darker grain color. I am assuming it was faded on propose by UV exposure?
     
  15. Fletch

    Fletch V.I.P. Member

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    Scott, I think the trick there is to do the color coats in analine and then fade in the sun. If you do it right you can get that much fade in about 8-10 hours on a sunny day. After it has faded, then you start the amber tinted clear coats.


    fletch
     
  16. ExNihilo

    ExNihilo Senior Member

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    Hey fletch,

    I do spray in aniline and fade them in the sun. My question is how to spray the burst so that the blue remains more than the red. I was wondering if spraying blue aniline alone first would work better than having it mixed in altogether (which is what I have done).

    Thanks.
     
  17. Juan7fernandez

    Juan7fernandez Senior Member

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    From what I have read, the green is only a result of the amount of blue in the cherry red mixture. this is obviously because Blue does not fade as much as the red. I would say adding more blue to the mix will do the trick, but it would be interesting to see what would happen if a layer of blue is sprayed separately before the red.
     
  18. expo

    expo Senior Member

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    I would think that it does not make a difference.

    Its a physical law, even with more stable pigments.

    Red fades first and blue later, it has to do with the wavelength of the light.
    Every old faded picture looks blueish..
    You see red because the color absorbs the blue part of the sunlight and reflects the red.
    The amount of energy corresponds with the wavelength of the light.
    The short wavelength is blue and means more energy than the longer red waves.

    That means the red absorbs more energy from the short blue waves,
    than the blue color from the red.
    More absorbed energy means more damage for the red pigments.

    The one thing I observed while fading is that the old laquer also gets lighter under UV and that the wood/maple started to get darker..tanned.

    The nice LMII yellow started to get greenish, but after more UV ended up orange. I wonder if its the wood or the laquer or the yellow pigment caused this. I used UV lights.
    The maple was not the white eastern species, but a darker red maple and I used old brown Nitro.

    Make some tests first.

    Here you can see how a nice greenish teaburst started to get darker with a little UV and how orange it looks in the end.
    (There is some time in the mid of the process where everything looks blueish green.)

    I used the LMII pigments:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Maybe its different with eastern maple?

    thats how my top looked first:
    [​IMG]

    Jo
     
  19. dickjonesify

    dickjonesify Senior Member

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    Excellent Nuance97, that looks perfect! The deep red is definitely the way to go. Obviously lots of blue.
     
  20. nuance97

    nuance97 Premium Member

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    I do think that you'd call these Brockburst.

    I think Fletch hit it on the head. I'll bet Dave sprayed the burst (with maybe a couple thin clear coats to lock in the burst), faded in tanning booth, then sprayed amber topcoats.

    You could, unless you're really hung up on only using aniline, use a little of the $tew Mac ColorTone blue. Since it is light-fast you know it wouldn't fade completely away.
     

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