How do you know when it's a Real Burst

Discussion in 'Vintage Les Pauls' started by ddh101, Aug 1, 2014.

  1. yeti

    yeti Senior Member

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    yeah, something like that, but that's my fault, not theirs'.:)
     
  2. JJ Blair

    JJ Blair Senior Member

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    Yeti, one of the few times we've wound up on the same side of an argument was in regard to scientific testing. I guess that scientific proof isn't as comforting to some buyers as a letter of authenticity with a rainbow signature.
     
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  3. single cut 54

    single cut 54 V.I.P. Member

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    Werner, all of the now known fake guitars that have ever been sold as ''Real Bursts'' have be done so because the customer has trusted a less than honest ''dealer''/''expert''. Scientific/forensic evidence would be an excellent method of authenticating a vintage guitar, provided that the scientist was straight and that it wasn't invasive. I just feel that there are enough honest experts/dealers who can tell a fake from a real Burst so as not to warrant forensics. The scientific approach would make a fine alternative or ''second opinion'' but I feel it's not altogether essential if the ''right'' expert is consulted.
     
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  4. ddh101

    ddh101 Senior Member

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    Guitar DNA? Irrefutable evidence of authenticity? Wouldn't that be something.
     
  5. waboe

    waboe Senior Member

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    you know if you get wood
     
  6. yeti

    yeti Senior Member

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    Why does everybody know my first name?:wtf::wtf::laugh2::laugh2:
    Every time an expert is brought in, the buyer thinks it's the "right" expert, no?
     
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  7. yeti

    yeti Senior Member

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    I remember that. Never quite understood the grief you got from some in that thread. Oh well.

    what I don't remember is being on opposite sides of an argument much but my memory is shit these days.
     
  8. JJ Blair

    JJ Blair Senior Member

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    Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I meant was that it was the two of us against every else, not that you and I always disagree.
     
  9. single cut 54

    single cut 54 V.I.P. Member

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    The right experts have 30 plus years ''provenance'' and experience, they are not just internet overnight sensations. You are correct though and choosing the right expert is vital.
     
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  10. southsilicon

    southsilicon Member

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    Forensic lab techniques...specially paint, and wood...you can fake just about anything but it will show up at molecular level...
     
  11. pinefd

    pinefd V.I.P. Member V.I.P. Member

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    But would forensics be able to distinguish between a vintage guitar with a refin, versus a modern day replica made out of old growth woods?


    Frank
     
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  12. RAG7890

    RAG7890 Premium Member

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    Frank an interesting thought re using Forensics.............you could take a tiny paint chip & run a GC Mass Spec. However, what if the Nitro formula had changed slightly over 1958 - 1960...............or Batch to Batch.

    You would actually pick this up running a GCMS & then you'd be like.......well which one is real? :dunno:

    You also need an extensive MS Library..............or fingerprints in simple terms.

    Carbon dating is probably a waste of time because even Old Growth is not really that old & a Replica made with genuine Old Growth will come up the same way.

    There are a number of non destructive techniques that could be used but I'd want have a few known Bursts to run a baseline prior to hit & miss on Guitars that may or may not be genuine.

    Everything is doable in some way. Would be an interesting academic exercise that would prove once & for all that we are definitely crazy. :laugh2:

    Cheers, Rudi
     
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  13. RevWillie

    RevWillie Senior Member

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    "What is this 'we' Kemosabe?" - Tonto






    :D
     
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  14. Bill Hicklin

    Bill Hicklin Senior Member

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    Depends how you define "forensics." I would define it to include microscopic analysis of areas like the pickup routs; individual cutter heads/router bits have a 'fingerprint' as individual as a mechanical typewriter's.

    How insane do you want to get? It's possible, with the right equipment and sufficient money, to extract microscopic sandpaper residue and analyze its composition. They can also analyze solder metallurgically.

    Of course, neither guitar you mention would probably have a market value high enough to justify that level of investigation.
     
  15. BBFiftyNine

    BBFiftyNine Banned

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    Maybe not but a seasoned expert would. The guys who sink big $$$,$$$ into these things know what they are doing I suspect.
     
  16. RAG7890

    RAG7890 Premium Member

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    Unfortunately not all the time. The last seasoned expert didn't, neither did GM with PS's fake Burst (assuming it was not a publicity stunt of some sort).

    :cheers:
     
  17. BBFiftyNine

    BBFiftyNine Banned

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    12 years seasoned?
     
  18. RAG7890

    RAG7890 Premium Member

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    Not my words but numerous "experts' on both Forums. :laugh2:

    If the day comes that I buy a '54 - '60 Les Paul, I'll be more than happy to enlist Eric's help & get input from Frank, Bill & 2 - 3 Luthiers I know. :)

    At least then I know I'll not be in a pool full of Sharks. :D

    :cheers:
     
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  19. VictorB

    VictorB Formerly LZF Super Mod

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    Smart man. Make sure they are really guitars you can trust!
     
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