Help Me Understand the "Reissue" Craze

Discussion in 'Historics & Reissues' started by Detector, Aug 7, 2017.

  1. BBD

    BBD Senior Member

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    And maybe this is a consequence of work practices and labour relations. But whatever the cause, it would be nice if it could be resolved.
     
  2. Shadow Explorer

    Shadow Explorer Member

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    All I'm saying is that custom shop is just another production line, just at a premium price.
    Most of the times, the price difference does not represent extra labor (compared to a USA line) 'cause most of the manufacturing is automated.
    Therefore, just like any other guitar production line, there are good and bad ones, so it comes down to the individual instrument.
     
  3. freebyrd 69

    freebyrd 69 Silver Supporter Premium Member

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    IMG_2828.PNG IMG_2829.PNG IMG_2830.PNG IMG_2832.PNG IMG_2834.PNG IMG_2835.PNG IMG_2838.PNG
    Yep.....all that automated production. At least be somewhat informed on what you are commenting on.....
     
  4. Shadow Explorer

    Shadow Explorer Member

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    LOL. I have definitely never seen a factory tour of gibson usa, or dean or gibson custom or any other factory tour available on the net.

    I will leave this perfect example of Gibson CS for everyone to admire. (As disqused in another topic in these forums.) :cheers2:\

    In a funky way those pics do prove my position, as all these are not indifferent to the USA line. The lady who scraps paint from the binding is not a master luthier.
    Nor the guy who applies binding.

    I only know one company who injects binding in a canal when the body is a slab of wood and that is ErnieBall...

    https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CSLPSTD11084
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
  5. freebyrd 69

    freebyrd 69 Silver Supporter Premium Member

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    Not the point. One does not have to build a guitar from start to finish to get a great end result. No assembly line at the CS. While not luthiers, they are highly skilled at the job they do, are hands on and in many cases been there for decades.
     
  6. Sct13

    Sct13 Gold Supporter Premium Member

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    I haven't been to Gibson yet....but I have been to Kalamazoo, and those guys were craftsmen and woman, who still did it the old way. Heritage still has the machinery and tooling from the Gibson days....and I didn't see a CNC machine there. But they had the Slack Belt sander. They also had a 56 Strat!
     
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  7. RangerJay

    RangerJay Glam Bastard Premium Member

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    I was a Strat player for 40 years. Almost exclusively. Never got into Les Pauls, even though I owned a couple. Then, in 2013, I bought a Traditional on a whim. I had some cash burning a hole in my pants, and I bought it based on the specs. No weight relief. Old style thick as shit neck. Bought it sight unseen online.

    When it arrived, I plugged it in and was instantly amazed. This was a guitar I could get into. I devoted a lot of hours into playing it. A lot. So much so, that my Fenders collected dust. Once I learned how to finesse my Les Paul, it just became my fave. A couple of years later, after learning about reissues, I also thought, "What's the fuss?" So I decided to investigate.

    I picked up a 2013 '58 Reissue VOS, and it felt like an old friend. It was very much like the Trad, only it had "a little bit extra" going on. The fit and finish, attention to detail, and the thinner finish just made it sing. I freaking love that guitar! I have several guitars, Fenders and Gibsons, and I like them all. I have an EJ Strat that I love, a cheap Ibanez maple acoustic that I love, and I have my '58 reissue that I adore. I have an extra one, just 'cause. But my favorite guitar is my 2013 Lemonburst '58.

    I don't care how close it is supposed to be to a golden era guitar. All I know is, it's a great recipe. My 2013 Traditional comes close, and is practically a modern clone, but it just doesn't quite make it to the level of the reissue. The '58 is a great playing guitar, period. Not all that expensive if you look around, comparatively speaking. As an aside, I only picked up an Eric Johnson Stratocaster because it has a thick, juicy neck like my favorite LP. It would qualify as my "Number 2" right now.

    While they are probably very nice guitars, I'm not interested in the CC series, or the True Historics. Then again, I ain't rich. I just like good guitars. The Gibson reissues are just really good examples of a proven recipe.
     
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  8. lpthomas

    lpthomas Senior Member

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    US Standard and True Historics are worlds apart. So this debate does not matter and a lot of it is just about the definition of "made by hand."

    Could Gibson build the equivalent of a True Historic (or a similar specd '17) at the price point of even the most expensive US guitars? I think the answer is very simple. For me, that is the justification for the Custom Shop and reissues.

    How many people will ever order M2M guitar? Not many probably. That it is at all possible means a lot to me. It's true — they do have a good recipe to build a nice guitar.

    As for price: I cannot afford, say, one of the new TMs. But why shouldn't there be 10k guitars? A well-configured 15-inch MacBook approaches half of that. Last year's Standard Historic 59s cost more than half of that. Call me crazy, but to me it all makes sense. As long as a US Standard is over 2,5k, there's nothing wrong with a nice reissue twice or thrice that.

     
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  9. PierM

    PierM Premium Member

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    I honestly think all this "handmade" argument is flawed, for many reasons that the most seems totally ignoring, for a bias or another. It's human nature I believe.

    There is not a single guitar manufacturer, which is aiming to produce and distribute worldwide on a large scale, that is not using both CNC and manual operation, mixed in the production line. Technically speaking, there is not any major difference between a China factory doing chibsons on a large scale, and the Gibson plants. They are all working similar, with machines "printing" parts, and skilled workers assembling, refining, painting, buffing etc. If you watch a tour video @ epiphone plants in china, it looks pretty much the same as a video @ Gibson plants in USA. Does mean NOTHING. It's just the way a guitar production line works. Also, I know luthiers that are doing all by hands, and spending 3 months for a guitar, and they are totally POS. So, again, mean nothing a way or another.

    Given the product placement and the market segment (plus the heritage of the brand), the difference it's in the materials, in the guitar construction design, in the quality of the parts, in the worker skills and passion, and of course the quality control.

    Said that, CNCs are tools, modern tools, but it's not robotics (yet), and even if it were robotics, wouldn't be necessarily a bad thing for the product itself.
    There is nothing handmade from the start to the end, since it's not they are modeling a piece of clay. A saw it's a tool, the semi-auto machines they were using in the 60...they were also tools. How in earth a saw would work better than a CNC?

    Please enjoy the progress.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
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  10. dleake

    dleake Member

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    It's all gibberish. Who cares. My CC#7 Shanks is a god damned work of art with a perfect neck, perfect weight and beautiful aging. I hug it every day. And I love that it was made by those fine folks at the Custom Shop who do amazing work. How could someone say I'm wrong? :cheers:
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
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  11. Crotch

    Crotch Delete My Account Entirely Double Platinum Supporter Premium Member

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    I don't feel a need to justify what I like. I've been from Squire to Masterbuilt. From Studio to CC. And all things in between. There's been something to pick from that I've liked from all lines. Even though I am now 100% CS with everything I have I still own a standard from 3-4 years ago cause it is such a great guitar. Just like what you like. And the more you like it, chances are the more you'll play it which should be the most important factor.
     
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  12. LPV

    LPV Senior Member

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    I'd have to say my R8 is just a perfect guitar. Its basically my dream guitar from as long as I have been playing. It has 1 weird quality that my other guitars don't have quite as much of - it sounds amazing no matter what I play it thru. My standard is a killer guitar and sounds massive through my half stack but thinner on combo's. But it's like my kids, I love them all faults and all. Now the dumb thing is I picked up the $479 jr and that friggin' thing sounds/plays unreal anywhere too!
     
  13. rogue3

    rogue3 Senior Member

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    I bought a couple R8's 5 years ago.2010 and 2011. Long time Lespaul player here...had to see what the hub-bub was about.At first, i was critical about the pickups...but not anymore.There is nothing to change, they each have a distinct personality,within the Lespaul thing.What they do is excellent.Couldn't be happier.
     
  14. FennRx

    FennRx Senior Member

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    I own an R9. I own a 2014 LP MM. I own a $100 Morgan Monroe acoustic.

    *shrug*
     
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  15. Ph03n1x

    Ph03n1x Senior Member

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    I think the prices are a little crazy but that is everyone's complaint. Some models seem more ridiculous than others. For example, a mahogany VOS LP special has no flame maple cap or body binding and still costs over 3k new?
     
  16. PierM

    PierM Premium Member

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    I believe the 3K it's the psychological threshold to not enter in the Gibson MUSA price range. If you want a CS, they kinda start from there (usually with regular CS models), whatever specs.
     
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  17. Shawn Lutz

    Shawn Lutz Senior Member

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    I bought my 2 RI used a 2008 3 PU BB7 LPC for about $2500 and a 2009 R7 Goldtop for about $2200. There are deals out there which is why I think its crazy to spend those amounts on a new Traditional or Standard when 9 times out of 10 the RI will be the better guitar.
     
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  18. rich85

    rich85 Senior Member

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    Current logic:

    "Its all machine made"

    *see's photo of hands on work*

    "Yeah but they arnt master craftsman"

    *has 0 idea of said persons ability*

    I genuinely believe people think CNC machines assemble guitars.
     
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  19. KBMelb

    KBMelb Senior Member

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    When I worked as a finisher in a custom (handmade) furniture shop, every builder had or made jigs that would help make things more automated and precise. I personally just think of a CNC as a type of jig, albeit a very technical and expensive one. I think if you can pick on a CNC machine you probably need to pick on a planer too.
     
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  20. jamman

    jamman Premium Member

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    Not really about having internet or not . Word of Mouth is still the biggest from of advertisement . Although it's more (internet) about using the different types of media's to pass along reviews and opinions of those things other have interest in ...

    What Killed the Original LP's production? It was Word of mouth reviews of their quality VS. the price Gibson put on them (and possibly in some opinions the switch to Humbuckers from P-90's ,which is evident in sales figures)... Took longer to do but it showed up in lack of sales .....
    When did Gibson LP's become Valuable ? IMO, After Investors took over the market by scooping up as many as they could get and then making a market to profit off of (started in the 70's) . There was a time when an Original LP was (by todays standards cheap to buy) ... I remember those days.... And didn't really every consider buying 1 because of their reputation for having not so good quality .

    It's the same today with Gibson (more so with the USA line), You still "get what you get" .... No matter what you do . M2M, Custom order or off the rack ... Unless your a "hot shot", known , "Someone" in the world ....

    Advances in Production line manufacturing , along with computers got us to where we are today .
    CS LP's are still subject to the same problems as in the 50's ... But now , with so many more being built everyday ... the odds go up that you might get 1 that's flawed ,in some way . The flip side is that the odds also go up of you getting an excellent and maybe even great guitar too.
    IMO the guys at the CS are Skilled(semi-skilled?) workers who do, on average very nice work ... But like anything in life , Dogs are to be had ....
    Nit-picking ,IMO has become an art form on top of all of it ....
    Like'em , Buy 'em and be happy with the 1 you got , if it's good . If not, move it on ..
    If not Get something from another Maker and your all set ....

    It's still "production line made " Maybe you're Idea of what production line is , is skewed ?
     
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