Guitar Grounding Common Misconceptions?

Discussion in 'Tonefreaks' started by jonesy, Jul 23, 2010.

  1. onehippie

    onehippie Senior Member

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    adding was your intent you answer your question how do you profit from his reply for your sake im glad im not a moderator your a person who asks a question only to argue your point of view to the response of the replier i have the feeling it may have to do with interupting Jonesys work schedule give us your point of view and go start it up again talk til your blue in the face "google" the anwer
    experience .
     
  2. Lampens

    Lampens Senior Member

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    Euh... Spaghetti???
     
  3. Raz59

    Raz59 Senior Member

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    How do I profit? First of all, I learn from the experience. I have deep respect for jonesy's work and the time he invests gaining experience from actual physical work. And I hope my replies are not " interupting Jonesys work schedule" like you say.

    But doubts are doubts, he says that grounding all of the pots makes only half of the switches work.
    You want my point of view? I'm claiming that all the switches do as advertised, but you can't have the toggleswitch in the bridge position and you can't coil split the neck and be in series mode at the same time - basically I'm arguing that the grounding isn't a problem.

    I did try to Google the answer, and there don't seem to be any people out there complaining that the Seymour Duncan JP wiring diagram is wrong WHICH is what I'm being led to believe.
    So jonesy and I are claiming different things and I'd like to know how the grounding causes the switches to malfunction.

    Grounding is the topic at hand, I'm still in-topic, hopefully.
     
  4. Mookakian

    Mookakian Senior Member

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    I think your on to something when considering neck split series mode, it can be done ;) With correct grounding
     
  5. jonesy

    jonesy GLOBAL WIRING GURU MLP Vendor

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    Thanks for taking the time to post in this thread John, your input is appreciated. ;)
     
  6. jonesy

    jonesy GLOBAL WIRING GURU MLP Vendor

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    At least your thinkin' Mook, I 'll give you that ;)
     
  7. jonesy

    jonesy GLOBAL WIRING GURU MLP Vendor

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    [​IMG]

    If this is the edited version of which you speak? I still don't think the grounding is correct. Have you actually tried this to see if it does work Raz? Because I got a feeling it is not going to be 100% functional.
     
  8. Mookakian

    Mookakian Senior Member

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    I also have an old rig in bits trying to understand whats happening, confusing once you reverse the polarity of a pickup:cool: then shunt a coil to ground! You guys are nutz:shock: But i cant stop now myself:thumb:
     
  9. jonesy

    jonesy GLOBAL WIRING GURU MLP Vendor

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    OK, I am gonna come clean on the "Grounding" issue just in case anyone reading this thread wants to build one of these 21 Tone Jimmy Page rigs, using this schematic. Here is the grounding that I have found to work so all 21 switching positions function properly. I have actually wired them up like this so this is not just "speculation" or a guess on how or if they will work, it works like this.

    "Mook" has the grounding theory right, but maybe he peeked at the JP rig that I built for him :cool:


    [​IMG]

    NOTE: A couple of things that need to be considered here is that the switch shown in the diagram is an import switch, not a Switchcraft switch so the hot and ground are actually going to be located on the opposite sides of each type of those switches. If you also have an additional bare wire coming from each pu I normally solder the wire from the bridge to the back of the bridge volume and the bare wire from the neck pu to the back of the neck volume pot.

    Seems like without the additional "C" grounding the neck pu did not work and with extra grounding where it should not be (like between the neck volume and neck Tone) it acted like a kill switch? It's been over a year since I had worked on this problem, but I can tell you that the way I have shown the grounding will work.

    Hope this provides some clarity ;)
     
  10. Raz59

    Raz59 Senior Member

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    That was conceptualized, from scratch, in paper. But I noticed that the similarities between both versions were too great; tracing the signal path, theoretically both work. And why shouldn't they work?
    The signal of the pickup always travels to the jack. Except, of course, where noted (toggleswitch in the bridge position and pickups wired in series, since this is a very rudimentary Page wiring, you can't have everything at once, there are flaws in design, but single coil/out-of-phase/series can be done, just not split-series-phase or split-split-series).

    I don't understand what you mean by the grounding not being correct; each pot has a wire to ground, the phase switch sends only one end at a time to ground (if you coil split the bridge pickup, the phase switch alternates between slug and screw coil), the series switch does what it does...

    There can be issues with one of the coil splits, because if you split one of the pickups in these kind of designs, you leave the series link in an open circuit. So the single coil will be controlled by the corresponding volume pot, but the end that is supposed to connect to the series switch has no connection to that particular single coil.

    And I'm not following Mook's theory about Neck tone and Neck Volume not supposed to be grounded together. Why does it matter?
     
  11. Mookakian

    Mookakian Senior Member

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    :rock:

    Thanks jonsey, at least i know im on the right track, still some grey in my head but ill figure it out. At least now i know why NT to NV grounding doesn't work

    Oh, and i peeked at your rig, just a little;)

    Raz, sorry, its late and im up, again! I gotta go to bed, if Jonsey doesnt clrear it before i return ill give my theory on why via sketch.
     
  12. Raz59

    Raz59 Senior Member

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    Mook, help a guy out please, why does that way of grounding work whereas:

    [​IMG]

    This doesn't?
     
  13. 767400

    767400 Senior Member

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    Jonesy,

    Thank you very much for this explanation!
     
  14. jonesy

    jonesy GLOBAL WIRING GURU MLP Vendor

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    There is a lot of stuff going on with these 21 Tone rigs and it can be mind boggling to say the least. :shock:

    Here is the list of switching functions for the 21 Tone JP rigs that I wire up, it is a bit different than the Seymour Duncan rig since they are not wired exactly the same. But you can get an idea of what is going on. I use the same "C" grounding method on the JP rigs I build and as you can see there are series, coils splits, and phase going on at the same time.



    Tonemojo 50's style 21 Tone Jimmy Page Switching functions

    Switch set to Bridge pu

    1. All controls down-bridge pu in full HB Mode
    2. BV pulled out-bridge pu screw coil is on
    3. BV,BT pulled out-bridge pu is split and slug coil is on


    Switch set to Middle position

    4. All controls down-neck HB and bridge HB are parallel in phase
    5. BT pulled up-neck HB and bridge HB pu's are parallel out of phase
    6. BV pulled up-neck HB and bridge screw coil is on pu's are parallel in phase
    7. BV,BT pulled out-neck HB and bridge slug coil on pu's are parallel in phase
    8. NV pulled up-neck screw coil is on and bridge HB pu's are parallel in phase
    9. NV,BT pulled up-neck screw coil is on, bridge HB pu's are parallel out of phase
    10. NV,BV pulled out-Neck screw coil on, bridge screw coil on pu's are parallel in phase
    11. NV,BV,BT pulled out-neck screw coil is on, bridge slug coil is on pu's are parallel out of phase

    Switch set to Neck position

    12. All controls down-neck is in full HB mode
    13. NV pulled out-neck screw coil is on
    14. NT pulled out-neck HB and bride HB series in phase
    15. NT,BT pulled out-neck HB and bridge HB series out of phase
    16. NT,BV pulled out-neck HB and bridge slug coil is on pu's are series in phase
    17. NT,BV, BT neck HB and bridge slug coil is on pu's are series out of phase
    18. NV,NT pulled out-neck screw coil is on bridge HB pu's are series in phase
    19. NV,NT pulled out-neck screw coil is on bridge HB pu's are series out of phase
    20. NV,NT,BT-neck screw coil is on bridge screw coil is on pu's are series in phase
    21. NV,NT,BV,BT-neck screw coil is on bridge screw coil is on pu's are series out of phase

    NV= Neck Volume
    NT= Neck Tone
    BV= Bridge Volume
    BT= Bridge Tone
    HB= Full humbucker






    Raz I deal in the "Real" and the "Now" so if you wire something up and it works, then it works whether you actually understand how it does or not.

    Same thing if you wire something up and it doesn't work, even if you "Think" it should work for some reason, but really don't understand how, then that still does not change the fact that it doesn't work.

    You need to be able wrap your head around this stuff and use a more "common sense approach" there is a reason for why all these mods work or don't work, but guessing at them is not going to help you in the long run.


    Here is a pic of one of my 21 tone Jimmy Page rigs and I think you can clearly see the "C" ground loop wired to the back of the pots just like I have illustrated for the Duncan version.

    [​IMG]

    I have a lot to do today so I need to get back to my work on the bench.

    Peace, jonesy
     
  15. jonesy

    jonesy GLOBAL WIRING GURU MLP Vendor

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    No problem, hope it helped. :thumb:
     
  16. jonesy

    jonesy GLOBAL WIRING GURU MLP Vendor

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    :thumb:
     
  17. Raz59

    Raz59 Senior Member

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    Well, this is where we part ways.
    You can settle for the "if it works, it works" perspective, but I'm very intrigued in regards to the "why does it work they way it works?"...I can't quite wrap my head around this particular case about which direction should the "C" be pointed to...you might not find any relevance to it, because "it works".

    Much like the topic of ground loops. "It works" if you have it, and "it works" when you haven't. But we've discussed the how/what/why of that already, and it's settled, I hope.
    Thank you very much jonesy for the seconds of your attention Jonesy, much appreciated and cheers!
     
  18. jonesy

    jonesy GLOBAL WIRING GURU MLP Vendor

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    It's all good, we all need to find what works out best for us in any given situation. Your welcome, and happy Modding! :thumb:
     
  19. FourT6and2

    FourT6and2 Senior Member

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    I'm with Raz. I like to know WHY things work the way they do. Yeah, you can wire it up one way and find that it doesn't work and then move that one little wire and all of a sudden it works. But, Jonesy, are you really telling us that you don't care to know the how's and why's? Or do you just not want to explain them?
     
  20. b3john

    b3john Senior Member

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    Build the circuit, then you'll know for sure.

    B3John's patented three-step plan for success: Test, test, test. :hmm:

    :)
     

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