ground problem new home

Discussion in 'The Backstage' started by Lampens, Oct 6, 2017.

  1. SteveC

    SteveC Village Elder V.I.P. Member

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    Step #1: Find another electrician. That guy is an idiot! If your home is not properly grounded to earth, you cannot have a "grounded outlet". Whatever test he supposedly performed could not have "passed" if there is no earth ground.

    Step #2: Have proper electrician install an earthing ground rod and connect it to your main electrical panel that supplies the wiring to your home.
     
  2. DarrellV

    DarrellV Almost 1 Year old this month! Premium Member

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    Unfortunately the lower end Furman stuff still relies on a good ground to be effective.

    Isolation transformer, not sure in this case because his problem isn't dirty power and lots of transients. His is essentially a floating ground problem, at least as his equipment is seeing it. There is a safety ground, but not an electrical ground.

    A double conversion UPS would also be the bomb for him, but it's more money.

    Maybe it would cost less than having an electrician wire him up a ground leg...

    [​IMG]

    These would definitely cure the problem for him and others who have complained of hum and ground issues.

    It essentially takes his mains voltage from the street and runs it through a conventional filter and power transformer.

    The transformer takes the voltage down to around 48 volts where it is rectified into 48 volts DC.

    This DC voltage is then used to keep the batteries charged and ready and to supply the built in inverter which then takes the 48 volts DC and pumps it back up to 220 volts AC.

    Since there is no direct connection with the street mains at all and you are running on AC that is being generated right from the box all those ground and noise problems go away.

    I've installed 2 of them with spare battery packs at my work to run all of our servers, phone and internet systems.

    20171006_134700.jpg
     
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  3. DarrellV

    DarrellV Almost 1 Year old this month! Premium Member

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    Hey Steve, OP explained this weirdness in his first post. It appears in the Netherlands they now rely on 'smart' technology GFI's to keep them safe and no longer are required to earth ground their houses.

    The electrician would have known this as he explained how it worked to the OP.
    He did point out that some equipment will act like its not grounded because of these 'smart' GFI's.

    Only workaround is to install a real ground, like you and others suggest...

    Or the double conversion UPS I suggested above....
     
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  4. Lampens

    Lampens Senior Member

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    Yeah, it is grounded but the resistance is different. He mentioned the differences in ohms vs the new and the old style of grounding over here. But I have absolutely no understanding of that kind of stuff.
    So the safety is there because the switch shuts down before you get shocked but it also means it doesn't have the capacity anymore like in the old style with higher ohms to get rid of the noise associated with improperly grounded amps. The electrician told me he already changed something like this for some other guitar player with the same problem the way it was grounded. Darrel' s explanation was sorta what he told but I didn't quite understand the specifics.
     
  5. Lampens

    Lampens Senior Member

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    Darrel, I have UPS' s at work. They are for the medical equipment like a ventilator to keep on working when the power fails in the field hospital. They look like an old desktop computer and are heavy as fuck.
    Maybe I should sneak one home with me and try if it works lol.

    Ofcourse, when I'll attempt that they will have a car search at the gate and I'll get busted for embezzlement of government equipment. :)
     
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  6. Pop1655

    Pop1655 Premium Member

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    I have no clue
    Pop
     
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  7. DarrellV

    DarrellV Almost 1 Year old this month! Premium Member

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    Well played!
    +1:thumb:
     
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  8. DarrellV

    DarrellV Almost 1 Year old this month! Premium Member

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    Just something you should know before you commit your daring deeds....

    A standard UPS is called a standby UPS and usually has a switch time rating in milliseconds. Also called transfer time.

    These units DO NOT make their own power and simply filter the existing mains current and pass it along to you.

    The batteries only kick in when AC is lost and the system 'switches' or 'transfers' to battery power by means of a relay switch built into the unit.

    So they are of no use to you as they also use the plug ground for their filtering efforts.

    Only an online (meaning no switching, always on) double conversion (takes mains down to DC then creates its own AC to the plugs) UPS would work as I described.

    You'll need to do some sleuthing on the labels first....

    And yes, the lead / acid batteries are heavy as heck!
     
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  9. WaywerdSon

    WaywerdSon Senior Member

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    Even with GFI and WTFevers that pass code, why the hell wouldnt you ground to earth anyway? Its costs what? Maybe $1.78 plus tax for a metal rod and 3 feet of wire? Makes zero sense not to do it
     
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  10. mtgguitar

    mtgguitar Senior Member

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    :bowdown
     
  11. DarrellV

    DarrellV Almost 1 Year old this month! Premium Member

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    :lol::lol::lol::lol:
     
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  12. DarrellV

    DarrellV Almost 1 Year old this month! Premium Member

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    agreed!
     
  13. SteveC

    SteveC Village Elder V.I.P. Member

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    D - Understood. What puzzles me is why they eliminated a simple and safe system (earth grounding) for a significantly more costly and higher possibility of failure, system.

    Earth grounding an electrical panel and circuits can't cost more than $10 in material and for all intents and purposes is, foolproof. There are no active components to fail (and cause death if not discovered).
     
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  14. Lampens

    Lampens Senior Member

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    I have no idea why they changed to this type of grounding. It started in the 90's or so. There must be a reason for it and supposedly it's safe but unfortunately not very handy for musicians or home recording types. I've search a bit more and I've seen some more stuff on this by audiophiles who have problems with recording and like using audio equipment over here. I'll wait if the electrician can make an old style ground, either with the water pipe or iron rod fix, for that specific group where the music room is on and that'll probably fix it. No other interferences in the room except for a laptop, that always, especially with single coils causes noise like when scrolling the touch screen. Which in my old house almost was gone after I plugged the laptop grounded into the same socket as the amp.
    Maybe I'll look around for a deal on a power conditioner anyway. Might be a good thing to have anyway to protect my equipment and reduce hum from the amps even more. Tube amps are noisy anyway and it's a small room so I notice it even more then in my old house I guess.
     
  15. Lampens

    Lampens Senior Member

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    I've did some more reading on this.
    They used to ground to the waterlines before 1975. But because water pipes started being made more and more of PVC, this isn't proof anymore. Water company's have to notify people if they change stuff like that in their system so the homeowners can take measures to assure they are still properly grounded.
    After 1975 it's either an iron rod in the ground but that's also mostly older houses or maybe single houses in the rural areas.
    Grounded by a collective groundnet for a neighborhood by way of a copper wiring in the earth around the houses.
    or grounded collectively with a neighborhood connected to the grounding system of the energy company.

    So my house grounded by one of those collective type things I guess considering the age of my house.
    It's not like my house has an artificial switching system that simulates ground to assure safety. That doesn't exist over here. A house has to be grounded by way of a wire that moves the current out of the house to the earth one way or the other.

    But I'm still curious if anyone knows what the electrician meant about the resistance of those switches being the cause for the noise. That because of those earth leak switches needing less or more resistance to switch of in case of a fault that it's not enough or too much to be able to have the current stream away to ground because the system shuts down a little too soon or too late.

    the only thing I could find was that in older houses the switches had a capacity of 0,5 amps. Later on 0,03 amps became the norm. Apparently because of a change in the building material of houses. Where houses used to have non concuctive carpet in the 70's and 80's more and more wooden or stone floors became the standard in the 90's until now.

    But I have no idea how that difference in switch resistance maybe causes the noise. I'd like to know how that works. Is anybody able to explain that to a n00b like me? :)
     
  16. DarrellV

    DarrellV Almost 1 Year old this month! Premium Member

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    +10:thumb:
    This is literally a case of putting your life in the hands of technology and having to trust that it will never fail.

    Not a gamble I would like to take.

    And as you say, why?
     
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  17. DarrellV

    DarrellV Almost 1 Year old this month! Premium Member

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    OK, that makes more sense.

    The noise is the result of the switch being attached across all 3 lines of your supply. It is feeling and checking the balance of the current flowing through each wire.

    The hot and neutral should always have current movement when something is running, but the ground wire should never have current on it.
    This would trip the switch.

    The problem is that even though it is a high impedance design, the fact that it is attached across the live lines and the ground means some tiny amount of current will leak across them.

    This is unavoidable and a necessary evil in the design.

    However, what is a guitar amp but a high impedance amplifier? So therein lies the problem.
    A dedicated feed from your box with ground will solve it.

    Want to go one better? Drive your own ground rod too.

    Being part of a community wiring scheme also allows for the possibility of noise from their homes to travel across to your house.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
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  18. Scooter2112

    Scooter2112 Senior Member

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    In case he catches "lightning in a bottle"
     
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  19. DarrellV

    DarrellV Almost 1 Year old this month! Premium Member

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    I'm really starting to think old Ben must have tipped the elbow once in a while....

    He dreamed up some pretty amazing stuff and found the courage to do crazy stuff like this!
     
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  20. rogue3

    rogue3 Senior Member

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    I have done this with an un-grounded (bad previous owner) box.Ground wire from box to copper water pipe with rated connector..Works well.I would try this first. But darrell has a good point about the GFI box leakage issue. And codes.You are in Holland..no? Euro rules then? Can you even get a a box without GFI?

    One more way in which we, guitarists are exposed for using primitive technology.C'mon...coil wire wrap around a magnet to produce sound? Codes just don't accommodate us anymore as we are not on the radar.

    If anything,our low tech is a good way to search for issues...:laugh2:



    good luck lampens...fixable.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
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