Gold Early Patent No. Sticker Help

Discussion in 'Pickups' started by mrfett, May 5, 2017.

  1. mrfett

    mrfett HJ Lover Premium Member

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    My ES-345 came with a set of gold early patent no. sticker pickups from a '65 ES-345. They were wired out of phase. I opened one up to flip the magnet and took some pictures. Can anyone help me more accurately identify the features? This page on guitarhq.com talk about the history of PAFs and says:

    Note the last version of the PAF (1961-1962) is basically identical to the nickle plated 1963 Patent# pickup (and on guitars with gold parts, probably as late as 1967 Patent# pickups are equivalent to 1961-1962 PAFs, since Gibson used less gold plated parts and inventories lasted longer). Because the wire color changed around 1963 from purple to a redish/copper color (and some other changes, listed above), technically the 1964-1965 Patent# pickups are different than the 1963 Patent# and late PAF pickups (though the tone is very similar). Also keep in mind gold plated PAFs used in archtop electric guitars (especially varitone guitars) can be seen as late as 1965 (yes PAFs as late as 1965!) The reason for this was simple - Varitone guitars had gold plated pickups with one pickup having a reversed magnet. This style of pickup was used far less than a nickel plated pickup. Hence these gold plated varitone equipped archtops are sometimes seen with one or two PAF pickups into 1965.
    I'm wondering if these are in the '61-'62 or post '63 category. You can see the wire bulging out a bit in one of the pics. They are amazing pickups, truly sound incredible. Thanks for any insight you guys can offer!

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  2. rclausen

    rclausen Senior Member

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    Do they have double black leads or black/white leads? Look between the bobbins where the paper tape wraps around. In your third picture, the area I'm talking about is at the bottom of the screen

    I really wish I would've picked that guitar up when it was available.
     
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  3. mrfett

    mrfett HJ Lover Premium Member

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    argh it's back together already. i thought the pics would be good enough, should've posted before re-assembling them.
     
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  4. Kris Ford

    Kris Ford Senior Member

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    Not even close pal.. ;)

    We need to see the bobbin leads the sqaure in circle window with the wire. :D

    Also, shoulda cut the original solder with an Xacto knife..the you could have reflowed it and it would look factory fresh.
     
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  5. mrfett

    mrfett HJ Lover Premium Member

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    I guess I thought the wire color would be the giveaway, I was looking for someone to confirm whether it's "purple" or "reddish/copper".
     
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  6. Kris Ford

    Kris Ford Senior Member

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    It's the reddish copper.
    Think of the square in circle as a "window" of sorts..(it's what the winder locked into, making the hole semi distorted)
    Like this '65 "Pre-T" PAT#:
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    Compared to:
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  7. cooljuk

    cooljuk Transducer Producer Premium Member MLP Vendor

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    They are "late PAF bobbin, poly wire, patent number decal pickups," mrfrett.

    The first photo shows the red poly wire because you happened to take it at just the perfect angle that it shows under the tape above the bobbins, clear as day. Your pickups are more like early T-Tops than late PAFs.

    What color the hookup leads are doesn't matter if you can see the actual coil wire and recognize it. It's that red poly that really signifies a difference.

    If ever you take the covers off again, it would be neat for you to know, and have a photo record of, if the start leads are fed through the bottom bobbin holes or not. This was a transitional time for that. I've seen some "PAF bobbin / poly wires" that use it and some that do not. There is good reason to argue that the ones that use that hole for the coil start sound different, as it alters the entire shape of the coil.
     
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  8. mrfett

    mrfett HJ Lover Premium Member

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    Wow ok I thought that was an insignificant detail. Thanks so much.
     
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  9. cooljuk

    cooljuk Transducer Producer Premium Member MLP Vendor

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    I don't think this part is correct.

    As far as I can tell, the mounting plates on the Leesonas used the holes that the brass screws pass through in the bobbins.

    On the Stevens and Meteor systems, where multiple bobbins are wound on the same spinning shaft, it would be impossible to use those circle/square bobbin windows for mounting as the drive shafts must pass entirely through the bobbin. That's not possible, using those bobbin windows, as the coil is wound in that location of the window. The shafts must pass through the brass screw holes or the pole screw / slug holes (more difficult to work with as they are different sizes on screw vs slug bobbins) which are on the inside of the coil, so as to not interfere with the winding process. Even the "Slug" machine seems to have had the bobbins mounted, as such. This also allows some universality in the company as the P-90 bobbins can also be mounted (and are probably what the mounting jigs were designed for, originally).

    As far as the non-centered circle/square holes, which are different on slug and screw bobbins, I believe that can be attributed to the bobbin molds being made by hand. There were no CNC machines to mill out or vaporize the steel molds with great precision so non-critical areas were treated as such. This also explains the "accident" circle on the #4 bobbin on the opposite side of the top from the window (below in first image).
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    This is just to show the mold cavity number "4" inside the same bobbin for record.
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    ...then again, I always appreciate the education of being corrected in a subject I'm passionate about. :cheers:
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
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  10. Kris Ford

    Kris Ford Senior Member

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    That's just what I've always heard..so please tell me if that is yet another myth! Glad to know the real answer! I don't wind..so I'm not familiar with how it all works.

    But it IS a window to the wire!
     
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