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Discussion in 'Historics & Reissues' started by markguitar, Sep 20, 2017.
SG. I won't buy any of their new stuff, I stick to the used market.
Whenever I read 'fantastic guitar FOR THE MONEY' it sets off alarm bells. You don't write that it is a fantastic guitar on its own merits. You qualify it that it is relative to cost.
The thing is, the bulk of guitars made are affordable, and quality has really never been better. That means that the vast majority of guitars are 'fantastic guitars for the money.' And by these definitions, it is only high end guitars on the wrong end of the ROI (where returns on cost are truly diminishing). Nobody ever seems to say that a $12000 guitar is a 'fantastic guitar for the money.'
If you are happy with Ibanez, I won't pee in your cornflakes. I just sold my last Asian guitars. I don't miss them at all. They are just tools. I sold two Ibanez and an LTD--- none really excited me. They were 'great guitars for the money'--- no doubt. But for a moderate increase in price I have better guitars that excite me a bit more. For some of us, brand means something... a 50s contour neck means something.... a bit of nitro finish means something, a guitar that sounds as it should out of the box means something (with no wish list of mods needed), etc....
While the quality of the True Historics are good; and I will say that every one I played was pretty right on. I could get 3, or 4 Replicas for the price of one TH. Plus a quality replicas is spot on close to a re
al burst. Especially with the right components and luthier. This was under 4k, and it's custom built; by one person. To each his own. IMO Gibson is continuing to price themselves out of the market; it almost seems intentional at this point.
What I mean is, the "buyers market" thing is touted pretty hard. However I don't see the market saturated with used R's on the cheap. So guys like you, me and others it appears are holding tight. So the buyers feel they have the upper edge but only IF they can find the deal. Like I mentioned in the other thread, there's two beautiful R8's both with good flame for sale in my area. Both are 3,400. Probably not what the buyers market folks have in mind price wise. The two to tango means you need a buyer and a seller to do the dance.
A true historic is not what first comes to mind when I think about Gibson.
It would be interesting to see its headstock. I am curious what logo it contains- and why.
Sure not going to complain about the End of Year close-out deals from the past Three December sales events I've crept upon.
I surely wouldn't part with Any of the sub-1k deals I received.
The guitar is not for sale and the logo is correct. The back of the headstock is a dead giveaway it's not an original burst. As the serial number is personalized to me.
I just; personally don't believe in brand loyalty. It's like people who only buy one brand of cell phone because it's a _____ phone. There are other options out there offering better features and such for much less money. Once again regardless of your view on the matter. Surely we can all agree that prices for Gibson guitars have become outrageous. *Beats dead horses skeleton.
I haven't owned a high end Gibson in thirty years and sold myself out of the market. Two Tributes and a Melody Maker for about 2K in the last three years. I'd still like an '18 Classic GT. For $2250 CND you have what is essentially an R6 with a shaved neck.
Prices go up, next to nothing some years and a bunch in others. My rent has increased all of $50 in nine years. At some point it's gonna hurt.
Mass produced guitars for way more than a bespoke Luthier built work of art? Love my Gibson's but we all know the quality not there to justify increasingly massive cost. I looked at a lot of dogs before I found my Les Paul second-hand. Gibson need to get over themselves and stop relying on their name to sell guitars. You can buy a PRS on line knowing it will be perfect. I'd never buy a Gibson unseen. Are we all paying for the 2015 debunkle? Gibson out of touch,over priced and doing themselves a lot of harm with their marketing ploys (long tenon joint if you willing to pay for 1/4 bit more wood. You want a junior?well we make something similar in standard range but pay loads more and we'll sell you something bit nearer etc.etc) All Gibson is going to suceed in doing is put themselves out of business!
So you're evaluating the used market from 2 UN-SOLD guitars ??? IMO that's an example of just why it's a buyers market , Those 2 guitars are un-sold because of their price . Now if a seller doesn't want to sell at a lessor price , that's up to them(that's the point where the "buyers market" shows itself since it could be sold for less) . But ,to Eval the market , One needs to look at prices of Sold guitars and how much the original asking price was .
Or better yet , Try selling a guitar and SEE ,first hand ,what happens .... I think you'll be very surprised .
If your using MAP as your price guide , I'd like to know and others would too(I'll presume) where you could get a spot on Replica for ~ 2k . IMO the terms Replica and Knock off are being used interchangeably , which ,imo doesn't work when looking at the details .
BTW it's not needed to pay Full MAP to get a great TH . That's only if you have to have that 1 guitar you've seen listed somewhere . Discounts are all over the place for TH's these days and were shortly after they came out .
Most Builders who have a "name" because of their build quality, cost MORE then a TH . Everyday .... Geez , a par of real PAF's will cost (with luck) 4K at a minimum .
Agree, Gibson is crazy about their prices , But nothing has changed this year, from every other year pricings . It's what Gibson business model is . On purpose .
You're missing the point. I'm not selling my Historic Reissues. THDNUT also. Many others here too are probably holding tight. Are you selling yours now for you can get for them? Probably not. That's my point. It's a buyers market, It's a buyers market, over and over again. Ok. Where's all the deals? They're aren't. Cause nobody is dumping them. Without a flood of sellers the happy buyers in the wonderful buyers market can not be all that happy.
Btw, anything nowadays is not an easy sell for it's fair market value. That's right, not even a 1963 split window Corvette. It's just the way it is right now. We're a spoiled fat country. Most people have more gear now than they ever had. SW is selling boutique gear 4yrs/0%. They figured it out. Cash is hard to come by, creates security, hence hard to let go of. I guess uncertainty is causing all this. But just like the guy with that vette who's not going to let it go for 20k. 98% Of reissue owners will not sell their guitars for a ridiculous loss.
As far as those two guitars I mentioned. Actually I've only seen two R9's sell for what I would consider "dumping" prices, 2,900 and 3,200. So I can not based the market on those two dump deals either. What I do see is fair market (to what was paid new) prices and buyers holding their ground. I can probably get either of those two guitars I mentioned for 3k cash. But I paid 2,900 for my flamed '14 R8 back in fall of 2014 and it was new/no warranty.
So when you sell me one of your R0's for 2,900 then I'll agree with you. Heck I'll even drive the 60-70 miles from my location to you to take delivery. Ha! Not being srs, trying to make a point.
I do agree with you that if I tried to sell one of my reissues today I would have to pretty much dump it for a loss to make a cash sale. But like many others, I'm not. Honestly I thought the sellers were more motivated last summer as that's when I saw those two R9's I mentioned. Looks like we're in a holding pattern. Back at the farm Gibson raises prices...
You're not looking hard enough.
I've seen quite a few 58s and 57s go for $2000-2400.
I saw R9s just north if $3k.
One guy on TGP had an R0 listed for $2900 and it wasn't moving.
The USA stuff gets even better.
Yeah the guys over at TGP are all up in arms because they can't seem to be able to flip everything for an instant profit these days.
The fact of the matter is; music is changing. When I was growing up; being a rock star was about the coolest thing you could be. Now, being a YouTube sensation or a pop or hip hop artist seems to be the new cool for hipsters. Until rock and guitar music has another renaissance. Sales will suffer, new bands will be fewer and far between; and I will continue to rock my replicas in defense of my right to play what I want. Because I like my replicas more than Gibsons, currently. Honduran and Braz > Fiji hog and EIRW
If you're looking to buy a used guitar, there are plenty out there, for really good prices. Especially if you're willing to ask or make offers as I am. And anyone hanging onto that R9 waiting to be offered their $4800 asking price will be waiting for quite some time.
..............we reap what we sow..............IMHO.
All the buying & instant flipping has not helped the market.
Absolutely this. As much as I loved 2014, it pretty much led to what gibson has become. I know guys that were ordering 5 R9's at a time getting them for like $3800 each and selling them for $4500. And there were so many of them, everywhere. Still are. I tried to make this point in another thread that as much as I don't love Gibsons direction, I think they're doings the right thing. Make less, charge more for a few years. Try to get a grasp on that overflooded used market to not have to compete there.
Yep there is no doubt that certain members get sweetheart deals for telling us how great the new Les Paul’s are.
They are continually buying, flipping & promoting. In effect they are directly or indirectly throwing a lure out fishing for sales.
The days of buying & flipping to make a profit or break even are more than likely gone.
As they say, you can fool some of the people some of the time but you can’t fool all the people all of the time.
Pretty much why I stopped chasing Les Paul’s from ~ 2010. It was a slippery slope to nowhere IMHO.
Chasing a Maple Top, even though I’ve been guilty in the past, just seems to asinine to me now. Probably why I line GT’s more now.
But hey, it ain’t my money so I suppose each to their own.
Knock yourselves out guys.
BTW, there are some outstandingly killer new deals in the US if you know where to look. Discounts galore. Yippeee.
My stores are of where not to shop vs where to shop is about 1000 to 5. There's some very good popular shops that get some killer shit. However I'll never spend their price. No matter what.