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Discussion in 'Gibson Les Pauls' started by tomguitar1963, Oct 10, 2007.
hi your thoughts on gary moore irish guitar legend and les paul guy check out his new blues album
Yea, I've been a fan of his for a long time. I'll have to check out the new album.
Gary Moore is at the top of my faves...well maybe not the very top,he ranks in the top 10 though!!!
Oh yeah, Man Gary is " Jack the Riffer" the guy can play and always has tons of good tone , I definitly count myself lucky for getting to see him play live , and he was with Albert Collins, what a whole smoking unforgettable show
He's the man..! I absolutely love "Still got the Blues" and I am currently learning it note for note (it's taking a while, LOL).
Fantastic tone on his guitar in that song, it actually sounds sad.
I have one questions, though........what the heck was he thinking when he sold his 59 Peter Greene Les Paul..???? I highly doubt he needed the money to pay his rent or something..??
Anyone know why he did that..?
He had to repay a guarantee on a tour that feel through. It was sell that or pretty much lose everything he had. It was a personal guarantee.
That's very sad Caretaker, I didn't think he would ever part with it and it's bad that it should be in those circumstances. I've always loved Gary's tone but then he does generally use good guitars! But I've found his style a bit too modern rawk for me. I love Blues for Greeny, though, and in view of what you said will buy some more of his blues records. The guy deserves support. There's some great stuff on youtube esp Gary with BB.
he sold the guitar to pay for 2 cancelled shows bud
I was really pleased by his new album, some really tasteful playing on there.
However, I can't listen to Blues for Greeny. Compared to the originals it all sounds like example tracks you get with tuition books! I keep meaning to look into more of Moore's stuff but so far it's been pretty hit or miss.
This is my favourite video of Gary on YouTube
YouTube - Gary Moore
you gotta check out still got the the blues and after hours bud
This one is mine, Something I saw em do live on the Peter Green Les
YouTube - Gary Moore
In the September '07 issue of Vintage Guitar, There is an article with Gary that explains why he got rid of the Green Guitar. It's a great article.Still got the blues is awesome.
for the last 10 years I was not very involved with Gary Moore. His cd back to the blues was imo soundwise terrible. I was disappointed with Phil Lynot Tribute dvd. But then I bought his "new" cd "close as you get" and I was blown away. The next day I bought his cds I missed for years (power of the blues and new ballads) and ordered this fusion cd of colesseum II (strange new flesh - a masterpiece of fusion rock of the seventies!!!), watched youtube vids. Yes I rediscovered Gary Moore again. For me one of the best!!!!
After 1991, I have to see him live in concert!!!
MySpace.com - Conny Martin - DE - Rock / Blues / Other - www.myspace.com/connymartin
yes conrad see him live i seen him on the scars tour he was awsome bud
WOW. Had no idea. What a terrible thing to happen. Thanks for the inside scoop.
He still is an all-time great one, in my book.
I love Gary Moore, here is my atempt to play parisienne walkways...
YouTube - Gary Moore Parisienne Walkways Cover
Hope you guys like it
AWESOME video. He is THE man. Love it.
Yes, I like it, like it!!!!!!
Here is my coverage of a Guitar and bass article where Phil Winfield and gary explain each side of te sale: hese posts of mine are from Gary Moore Lord of the Strings:
The new edition of Guitar and Bass,Dec. '06 has an interesting article about the Greeny sale,with Gary's side,but still leaves many unanswered questions,in my mind anyway;
The article by John Callaghan is reproduced for informational purposes only and is not being misused in any way.
"All everyone has had up till now is his side of the story,"states Gary Moore in a voice that's equal parts anger and frustration."I just want to put the story straight..."
The story in question relates to the sale of the 'Peter Green' Les Paul Standard that Gary Moore owned for over 30 years,and the account the ex-Thin Lizzy guitarist wishes to 'straighten' belongs to Phil Winfield of Maverick Music in Charlotte,North Carolina,now the owner of this iconic guitar.In a world where stellar guitars seem to be either sold at auction with a huge fanfare or change hands behind closed doors,the tale of this sale gives a rare peek inside the world of vintage guitar dealing,and hints at a future where certain guitars could go for as much as a later-period Picasso.
But let's put aside any talk of rancour or this instrument's pedigree for just a second,because when you learn that Phil Winfield has slapped a $2 million price tag on the guitar,your first instinct-should you still have control over your jawbone-will probably be something along the lines of 'What?!'
It will not sell for that much.You can quote me on that,smiles Winfield,a Yorkshireman who ran a guitar shop in Leeds for a number of years before relocating to America in 1998.'It sets a benchmark that removes a lot of people who come and ask silly questions-you wouldn't believe the amount of junk that people have offered to swap it for.But I've had an offer of $1.3 million and turned it down.For me,@1.3 million isn't enough to make me sell it.So I guess the price is somewhere between that and $2 million.'
Suprisingly,Winfield dosen't go all coy when asked how much he paid for the guitar.'The word's kind of out there on the Les Paul forum that it was a million dollars,'he acknowledges.'They're doing me a favour,as that's slightly more than I paid.I believe it's worth more than Blackie.I think it's crucially important in the history of rock and roll-after all,it inspired Jeff Beck,Clapton and George Harrison to go out and buy a Les Paul.This is my opinion and people will shoot me down or agree,but I bought the guitar with that in mind,so it affected what I paid.'
Winfield gained possesion of the guitar on 20 March 2006,after having first heard from a friend of Gary Moore's in May 2005 that it might be for sale.The initial stages,according to Winfield,were a standard process of each side feeling each other out.'It went backwards and forwards for ages without anyone commiting themselves to a figure.Ultimately,someone coughs up a figure that the other party will either say is nuts,or else say'We were thinking more of..."
Negotiations continued and eventually,in March 2006-having never laid hands on the Les Paul during the bargaining process-Winfield flew to London for the handover.However,an apparent disagreement between the two side about whether or not the electronic transfer of funds had been completed meant thathe spent a nervous day contemplating the worst.
'I had geared up attorneys for the eventuality that I was buying a forgery.The longer it took for the guitar to appear,the more I thought the finishing touches were being made to it.'Of course that didn't happen-I was way of base with that one.Gary's tech Graham Lilley dropped it off at New King's Road Guitar Emporium and I collected it around 7:30 that night.I knew it was genuine straightaway;there are tell-tale signs,and the markings are really quite distinctive.What did I first play on it? Oh Well.(Sure it Wasn't, Sympathy for the Devil-Emerald)'Let me tell you,you don't need to be Peter Green or Gary Moore to make that guitar sound that way.If you're the worst guitarist on earth but you can play that riff,you'll sound like the record on that guitar.'
WHAT HAPPENED NEXT
At this point everybody seemed happy,but it didn't take long for things to go sour-and publicly so.Winfield next travelled to see his paret's in Yorkshire,but stopped off to see a close friend and asked him to babysit the guitar for him for the day;given it's history he didn't want it in the back of his car whilst driving on the motorway.'He's a Les Paul Forum guy,'explains Winfield,declining to provide his friend's name for personal reasons.
'His wife photographed him with the guitar and he went on the Les Paul Forum saying"I'm having a great day playing the Peter green Les Paul!"He didn't know the trouble he was causing.That started a whole landside of atuff...nothing like this had ever been mentioned during negotiations and it was never covered under any agreement.'
Ther was also,insists Winfield,no agreement made that forbade him from publicising the guitar on Maverick Music's website.'It's maximum publicity for the company.You can't spend a million dollars on something and not think about it as an investment,'he points out.'I bought the guitar,ultimately,to make money.My intention was to have a reissue done by Gibson to get what I could get,$250,000 maybe,that would lower my outlay-and then one day I would sell it.'
Emerald:I would have to take issue with the honest Mr.Winfield here,as I emailed him at Maverick Music,when I heard of the sale,suggesting that Gibson do a replica,he replied to me,"Ask them yourself and see if they are interested."I thought this strange,as he owned the guitar,I have the email,if Gary needs it in Court!
I will continue this article tommorow,believe me it is just heating up,stay tuned fans.
Love to all Emerald
Part Deux of Moore Greeny Bad News!
Winfield does freely admit,though,that he did sign an agreement stopping him from advertising the guitar for sale on his website.He says he decided to do this only after Gary Moore started'attacking him in print',citing quotes taken from certain European guitar magazine articles as evidence.
'My opinion,after talking to my attorneys,[was] that after Gary went public and tried to destroy my reputation,we thought he was in breach of contract and decided to move on.' The guitar was put on display at the Dallas International Guitar Festival wher people 'literally paid homage to it',and Winfield was inundated with personal callers wanting to see,touch and paly the Peter Green Les Paul.'It's won me a lot of friends-and a couple of enemies,' he declares,all too aware that some people will see him as the bad guy.'Ultimately,I paid what he asked me to pay.'
GARY MOORE'S RESPONSE
Having said quite publicly that he didn't want to discuss the sale of the Les Paul,it was no suprise that our first request for an interview regarding the guitar got the polite 'thanks,but no thanks' treatment-but when Moore learned that we'd spoken to Phil Winfield,he decided to put his side of the story.
'Some of the events put forward by Phil are,shall we say,a little economical with the truth,' says Moore. 'The dates aren't so much the issue,more the chain of events-but this is exactly as it happened,from the start.'
First,Moore spoke with Rick Zsigmund at New King's Road Guitar Emporium in London via his guitar tech Graham Lilley about selling the guitar,and word came back that there was someone interested.
'Here's where the whole thing spins off for me,' says Moore.This guy Phil Winfield was not,as far as I was aware,going to be the recpient.One of the conditions of me selling this guitar was that it was not to go to a guitar dealer.
'It was also supposed to be a very discreet sale,because this is exactly where I didn't want to end up;here where I am with you today.There's lots of trauma [caused by] letting the thing go in the first place.I was told it was going to a guitar collection and that this guy Phil-I didn't know his name at this point-was only the intermediary and not the recipient.If I had been told [Winfield was the buyer] I would have called the whole thing off.' Moore was astonished to see the guitar on the Maverick website.
'The next thing it's down the Dallas Guitar Show,here,there,and everywhere,being paraded around like the bearded lady.'
The next point Moore want's to contest is the notion that he was paid close to a million dollars.Although he wishes the amount to remain secret,he confirms that the figure was substantially less than that quoted by Phil Winfield. 'He's using that to bump up the price.He's going to say that he bought it from me for a million dollars so that it's worth two million.I could show you the bill of sale,but for my own personal reasons I didn't want that to come out.'
So is the Peter Green Les Paul really worth as much as,say,Clapton's Blackie Strat? Moore agrees that it's 'a very valuable guitar',but reckons it's not up there with Blackie or Hendrix's Woodstock Strat in terms of monetary value.
'You go on discussion forums and a lot of guys don't know who Peter Green is,' he points out."Was he on Rumours?" You actually get that!The Crossroads 335 didn't go for that kind of money.All it does is push up the price up for everybody.'
'I'm shocked and quite traumatised by the whole episode,' he adds.'I had the guitar for almost 35 years and it was a big wrench to let it go.He provoked my remarks by parading it everywhere and not sticking to his agreement,as I understood it.There was an American radio interview where I said I was very dissapointed with the way it all turned out,because I was.They weren't particularly derogatory comments,but even if they were,what gives him the right to say that I had breached the contract?'
Although Moore claims taht a lot was taken on trust,he also says he possesses written documentation,signed by Winfield,stating that the guitar was to be purchased on behalf of a third party,and which 'states clearly' that Winfield would not sell the guitar either on his website or as an individual.After the interview,a copy of a document containing this information is shown to Guitar and Bass.
Following on from this,Rick Zsigmund went on to confirm his involvement in the sale and he chronology of events.He too was under the impression that it was going to a third party,statinghil didn't intimate to me that he was the end user.'And how much did the guitar really sell for? Knowing Gary,whatever figure he told you will be the truth,if he has told you a figure,'says Zsigmund.
PHIL WINFIELD'S RESPONSE
When asked to answer gary moore's claim that he didn't recieve close to a million dollars for the guitar,Winfield first of all tries to clear up any potential dollar/sterling misunderstanding.When it's established that both he and Gary Moore posses the same bill of sale-in sterling-Guitar and Bass asks whether the figure stated,or it's sterling equivalent,appear on the bill of sale.
'There is going to be a different figure,'admits Winfield,'because I got first class air travel,first class hotels,car hire,going out for meals,attorneys,accountants...that guitar cost me substantially moore than the bill of sale is going to say.'
'That's down to me if I want to spend that kind of money.But at the end of the day,when I come to recoup the money on the guitar-if and when i sell it-I can't just ignore the fact that I've paid this money out.So yeah,he may say there's a difference,but on my books and as far as my accountants are concerned that guitar has a cost attached to it.'
A request to learn the figure actually stated on the bill of sale is turned down.'You can publish Gary's bill of sale if he's going to let you.I can see that Gary is miffed about the sale...'
But what of Gary Moore's assertion that the guitar was to go to a third party and that Winfield was only acting as an intermediary,and the signed document to that effect?
'That was the case,and it changed,' Winfield calmly explains.'At the time I signed that document,it was true.I've got evidence that on the day of the transaction Maverick did not buy the guitar.I can show the funds coming in from a non-Maverick source.'
He refuses to name the 'very influential,well known,and well-financed ' individual,but states that the third party 'probably' only became involved in the latter half of the negotiations around December 2005.Winfield doubts the statements put forward by both Gary Moore and Rick Zsigmund that the deal would have been off if it had been known at any point that he was going to be the 'end user' rather than an intermediary.
'I don't know what gary was told,but I didn't know that he wouldn't sell it to me,'says Winfield.'This deal took a long time to develop and when it first came to my attention I was interested personally.'
According to Winfield,the third party collector decided he wanted to sell the guitar because of all the negative publicity that surrounded the sale.In early July 2006,the guitar was sold to Maverick Music.'The third party made $50,000 profit.
It's an immensely valuable guitar.It's only a business decision,he says,wishing to draw a line on things and move on.'You talk about the spirit of things,but the simple fact is that the guitar was sold by gary for an awful lot of money.If he didn't want to sell the guitar,what did I do to make him sell it? Put a gun to his head?'
Only time will tell whether this is the end of the saga.Although everyone seems to want to draw a line under things,neither Moore nor Winfield have ruled out future legal proceedings.Does this boil down to greed,seller's remorse or the overwhelming desire to be associated with an almost mythical instrument?
Whatever the truth,there may be some valuable lessons to be bearing in mind next time you're buying or selling a guitar...
I have much more info on Gary's guitars and equipment.!
Here is a photobucket album of pictures of Greeny:
http://s57.photobucket.com/albums/g219/davida54/1959%20Les Paul Standard Greeny/
Well i have some strong opinions based on what i've read and i can tell you this third party nonsense is so ridiculous.Are Phil's accountants reporting his sale to Her Majesty's Tax Collectors?
Hope you enjoyed this,took me hours to type,but you all are worth it Merry Christmas to all,and if i was Mr.Winfield,I might be standing at the crossroads,or hoping this guitar is not like the Hope diamond and the fate that beheld it's owners,as I've said here before. Poor Gaza.
02/11/07 at 09:22 PM #7
Reading a recent issue of The Guitarist,issue265,at Barnes and Noble,I came across a fascinating article by the famed English music journalist,Charles Shaar Murray,where he describes the history surrounding the Peter Green/Gary Moore Les Paul,Greeny,before it was sold to Peter Green.
Tony Tyler,who died last October,was for most of the '70's as first features editor and the assistant editor of the New Musical Express,a British music newspaper,similar to the Melody Maker and Disc.
Tony was primarily a keyboardist,but dabbled in guitar.He worked in a now defunct West End of London instrument shop,selling keyboards and guitars during the day and playing them at night.
Tony was a big fan of Eric Clapton and John Mayall's Bluesbreakers,particularly the tone Eric had with his '59 Les Paul Standard.
Since he worked in a music store,he was able to recieve one of the first 1959 Les Paul Standards in his shop,and gave himself a great discount as well.But being primarily a keyboardist,Tony realized that Peter Green,would be able to go so much further with this Les Paul than he could,so he quite unselfishly sold the LP to Peter,for little more than he paid for it.
So that is the story of how this guitar came into the hands of it's two most famous owners.The fact that Peter in turn,practicaly gave the guitar away to Gary,taking the money from Gary selling his SG at the time.
Tony before his death learned of the guitar being listed for $2 million .He said if he had kept it under the bed,he at least would have gotten a few hundred thousand dollars,even without the provenance,it was to have later.
So Peter first recieved the guitar through the kind and generous act of a musican and true fan,so it is so sad that the end of it's days,the Maverick Music people are the ones to hold the guitar,it needs to go to Cleveland in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
Maybe that's why Peter gave the guitar so freely to Gary,in the spirit of how freely it was provided to him in the first place.
Just thought this was a fascinating story,I'm sure lots of you have stories of famous guitars changing hands as well
In recent interviews Gary has reiterated the facts surrounding the factors leading him to sell Greeny.
He states the hand injury,allied with an insurance snafu,causing him great expense,coupled with him having to cover lost tour date expenses out of his own pocket,(I thought managers covered all this sort of stuff??)Anyway,I know his hand became infected and thus further complications.
Gary said he had to go down a gauge in string diameter,but is building himself back up and is almost back to his light top/heavy bottom set!! (0.10-0.52)
I have come to peace with Gary's statements regarding his return to rock,I have enough memories of his brilliant playing back then and his new blues playing is stamped with much authority and he has learned when not to play,as Albert King and Albert Collins told him!!
Gary got to record As Close As You Get,the way he has wanted to record for some time,practicaly live and the cuts I have heard(someguy has them on You Tube,audio that is),are not bad at all.
Hello to all here
Thanks Little Darling for your heartfelt words,have you posted here any of your poems?
I saw Gary only once at the Beacon Theater on the After Hours tour,and missed meeting him face to face at Manny's Music store in NY,by mere minutes,as I decided to walk to the store from the theater,rather than take a cab.
I told the salesman I was in town for the show that evening,and he told me,"Oh you just missed Gary,he was just in here.!"
I had driven all the way from Pennsylvania,got there early in the morning waited outside the theater all day,listened to the soundcheck,from the back stage door,watched Gary's equipment being loaded in,ect.
I am a hardcore fan,and get sooo excited the rare times I go to a gig!
Your words about the analogy of a rose with it's beauty,but surrounded by the sharp thorns of sadness,is very apt.
I have been trying to get various Les Paul fanatics here in the States,to appreciate that this is a magical instrument,no mere old Les Paul with a reversed pickup and a nasty headstock break and two wrong knobs on it and changed tuners!!
It is probably to me the greatest guitar story ever told of the modern era,and the whole story of Gary's life,intertwined with Peter's would make an excellent screenplay for a film someday!
I hope that Gary's life is less sad and he can move on towards a bright future with his family,the chapter of Greeny being over,Stripe the other '59 Les Paul,he still has,so let's all hope for the best for him.
Thanks again for your appreciation of Gary and his music,I envy your seeing Thin Lizzy and am glad that you get what I am trying to describe about the guitar and I am not crazy to think this way about it.
I chose not to show any pictures of these other guys playing her,as to me it is like a disservice to the memory of the guitar.
It is too bad that some billionare,couldn't have bought it and if it was destined for a museum,I would be OK with seeing it put to rest,where many thousands could see it in an exhibit,so significant is it's provenance in the history of British blues.
I am following what happens to this guitar closely..
Evy,if you watch closely in the Still Got the Blues and the After Hours time period,Gary plays the 1959 Les paul Standard #9-2227,called stripe on all the faster moore up tempo numbers.
I believe that this guitar is easier to play than Greeny and after the Blues for Greeny CD.VHS taped show,that was the finest hour for Greeny and what was it's future to be,brought out for Parisienne Walkways?
It was the right time to sell the guitar and I think Gary being the brave soul he has always been,decided it was time to move on.
He obviously hasn't fortunately had to deal with the slimy underbelly of the vintage guitar business lately,fortunately for him.
What happened after his sale of Greeny is so typical.
I tend to believe Gary's side of the story,but the milk has been spilt,so to speak and I'm positive the memory of it's sale still hurts Gary deeply.
I don't know what the magazines confusion is over,but Gary has a 1957 Goldtop,had the two 1959 Les Paul Standards,and had a 1958 Les Paul Standard,which was used on the after Hours CD cover and in promotional photos of that era,but Gary never publicly played that guitar and it was sold at an American guitar show and has ended up with Mr.Winfield as well now.
So Gary has the'57 Goldtop and the other '59 Burst #9-2227 Stripe!
MY hope is that Gibson will make a Historic Custom Shop replica of Stripe as Gary can authorize it and he still owns it.
Gary had said towards the end of his tenure of keeping Greeny that it was a bear to play,the action sky high and the neck being incredibly thick/fat,you'd never know it by the masterful way he plays it.
Stripe is easy to recognize as it has had its pickup covers removed.
I try to be a positive person on this forum,but I have some dissapointment with Gary's guitar tech Graham Lilley,this is soley my own opinion,but he must need his hearing tested or remove his earplugs as he is doing Gary an extreme disservice with his sound imo.
The amp choices and the whole live set up sound,is marginal and Brian Robertson managed a better Marshall tone than Gary on the One Night in Dublin DVD,shaky playing and all.
I havent listened to As Close as you Get yet and I have reservations about it,even being unheard.
My strong feeling is when Gary left the Soldano's behind and chose the different amps for the Blues for Greeny record and show,he was experimenting with different setups,but imo went in the wrong direction.
Even Jeff Beck has abandoned his Marshall DSL's for Fender Supersonic heads and cabinets.
Why dosen't any of these interviewers ever ask Gary what is going in with his amp/effect choices recently.
Hell,I'll ask him,if I can get through the barrier of Mr. Lilley.
One day the sun will shine through for Gary,but I hope it's not too late,as us hardcore,diehard fans are finding him extremely lacking in his previously unquestioned side of his playing,his equipment,always his strongest point.
So what has happened Gary,he was even using a Pod a few albums ago!
By limiting himself to the blues genre,Gary is missing the boat with hundreds of potential new fans.
And what peple have been saying about the new tour,Gary's stage introductions,"Nice to see you all then."
And at the end"Hope to see you all again some time,cheers."
Gary would hold the guitar high over his head,particularly after the Isstadion Stockhom show,it was the signature of a true genius who had given his all.
I'm not seeing that any moore.
Please Gary,do whatever it takes,we love you and your music,but you are not cut out to be a second rate artist.
Look back at your career and be proud,there is so much good there,to build on and revist past glories.
I know if I were in your shoes,what equipment i would be using,and I am a mere shadow of a player in light of your brilliance.
So hope moore better music is in the future,or ours will be the last generation to appreciate you,other than ex-Thin Lizzy guitarist.
One other story about Greeny,I read that Peter had given it to Snowy White to use,but Snowy decided he couldn't do the guitar justice and gave it back to Peter,next thing he knew,Gary ended up with it!
Couldn't fit it all in the original post!