Frets on True Historics vs Originals

Discussion in 'Historics & Reissues' started by Andy California, Sep 24, 2017.

  1. PierM

    PierM Premium Member

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    Those guitars never been for everyone, which doesn't mean anything crazy really. They are JUST guitars, not food nor a primary need for people to survive. It's a damn guitar. A good portion of their price has been typically justified because the good retained value in the used market, which means that you are not throwing 20/30% of your money out of the windows, as soon as you open the case. Overflooding it's forcing smaller stores to give up, because they have still 2014, 2015 and 2016 NOS, collecting dust (no sorry, they are not an affordable instrument for the mass), same with the used market. I understand your point, that this is probably helping you, and other guys, to afford one of these, but it's still a closed loop, because as soon as you cross the value with the USA model market, these guitars will have the appeal of a brick (value and price are really different stuff). It's how market works, like it or not. There is lot of psychological bubbles playing with people heads, and your attitude it's proving that.

    I do agree with you that guitars are a terrible speculative investment, but this is not the point. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  2. Andy California

    Andy California Member

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    Custom shop or not, they are regular production guitars. Regular production == for everyone who can afford them. As opposed to "for those with connections or loads of money at their disposal at any time" and other elitist things like that.

    Psychological or not*, I bought one knowing damn well that if I flip it, I'll lose at least half of the money I payed for it, and I'm cool with that (being from a poorer part of the world, I never had a luxury of good resale value on anything of value I payed money for anyway). I also know that if they retained their resale value really well, I wouldn't have one now.

    Whatevs, man. I'll just enjoy mine and hope they keep making 'em and devaluing rich men's guitar collections \m/


    *I was totally opposed to buying any guitar that had "Gibson" on the headstock and was a complete Tokai/Japanese LP knockoff fanboi... Until a seller in a guitar shop convinced me to play a couple of Historics when I asked if they could order an ESP USA Eclipse for me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  3. Crotch

    Crotch Members Only Premium Member

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    It's not bad for buyers. It's bad for Gibson. Hence the changes. They don't want to compete with the used market that they themselves over saturated by making so many. Not sure whats so hard to understand here.

    You're missing the whole point. I've had plenty of these guitars and am nowhere near an elitist. However if you are spending $5-$6k on a Historic or any CS product don't you want to not see your guitar hanging on every wall, or for sale used by 100 stores on Reverb? If that makes me elitist cause I don't think these should be overproduced than I guess I am guilty.

    There used to be, or at least was discussed at one time, set numbers of R's to be produced each year. Thats just the way it should be. otherwise you have what you have now. People that can't get rid of an R8 for $2,500 cause there are hundreds of them, yet shops asking $4500 for them new. Gibson is competing against their own used market and they are losing. Why? Cause there are too many.

    This is what Gibson wants. So you can disagree with is as much as you want but that is what Henry has created. Not me or any of us. Most of us here were buying 2-3 new a year back in 2014. So don't give me that elitist bullshit.

    So do me a favor. If you ask for an answer, and you don't like it, disagree with it and back it up with facts and quit crying. Otherwise piss off. I've done nothing but try and help you with your 100 fuckin threads posted about the most inane shit you can think of. How bout post a guitar or get lost cause I'm done trying to help. I'll keep my knowledge and opinions to myself from now on like the true elitist snob I am. Hell I barely play Gibson's anymore and play more Fenders and the one Gibson I do play a lot of is a 335 that was made in Memphis, non CS.

    So much for answering your question in a helpful constructive manner. Hope you find good luck in finding the answers.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
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  4. PierM

    PierM Premium Member

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    You are mostly fighting with yourself man. I think the only guy in this forum not really enjoying these guitars is you, judging from the heaviness of your replies.
    Don't know why you reply to everything, like people is acting against you, but really you should treat that Passive Aggressive attitude you have man.
     
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  5. Andy California

    Andy California Member

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    Crotch, you either don't read what I say carefully or just lack the mental capacity to understand that. You're so locked into your die hard "Buy 2-3 Historics a year and then flip them like crazy" and exclusivity mentality that...
     
  6. Andy California

    Andy California Member

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    Read again. I'm not enjoying people advocating for Gibson discontinuing these guitars and make them unaffordable to regular folks like me. So yeah, there is an element of defensiveness.
     
  7. Crotch

    Crotch Members Only Premium Member

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    Now you're just making yourself look dumb. Get over it. I answered your questions and you sir are the one who is not getting it. Until you realize that this is what Gibson wants, not me, you won't get anything at all. If you want to take my answers to your questions and be constructive with it great. If you want to resort to personal attacks and lack of mental capacity then you're engaging with the wrong person on this forum. Cry me a river with this regular folk thing too. You think $5g's for a guitar is just an easy fork over of cash for any of us? Sell your guitar, buy a clue.
     
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  8. Andy California

    Andy California Member

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    You're defending resale value in your personal interested again.

    Anyway, none of the "issues that Gibson Custom Shop had over the last 3 years" resulted in a loss of quality of the instruments. And you made it sound like we're doomed.
     
  9. Crotch

    Crotch Members Only Premium Member

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    You're not getting it guy. Just give up. I can't help explain it any further to you than this. This is Gibson's thinking. Them (making money on new) competing vs themselves (used and making no money). The only way to get around that is to slow the market of used a little. The only way to do that is to slow the market of new, that will become used. It's pretty basic.

    Has nothing to do with resale value for me. I'm not buying or selling so why would that matter to me? If you took the time to comprehend what I am saying you'd realize I'm more with you then against you on what you say. But you tend to focus on things that I haven't even said and making them your talking points.

    I never once mentioned anything about quality. So if you would like to keep attributing falsehoods to what I said please feel free to point out where I mentioned #1 that quality sucks and #2 that I am looking out for my own buying and selling 2-3 guitars and flipping them for cash. And please feel free to be specific in your answer and quote my posts in this thread for reference.
     
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  10. Andy California

    Andy California Member

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    OK. You said:

    Please excuse my limited mental capacity, but you were trying to make a point that there is something wrong with Gibson. You were making a point that less guitars is better. I thought: "The only possible reason big production numbers == bad for us would be only if that meant that the quality suffers with big production numbers". So I asked you to elaborate. You didn't say anything about the decline of quality, which is the most important thing. Great! That means that potential buyers have nothing to worry about as long as they are not die-hard guitar flippers who are unable to enjoy their instruments without getting a new one every coupla months... because despite the CC's and TH's, people can still buy high quality Historics (or don't call them that if you don't like that) that are as good as ever.

    To reiterate, you didn't say anything about the decline in quality, which is good news and which renders the rest of your post a pointless nonesense of someone who wants - something that you said in other words - to feels special owning a Gibson Reissue guitar.

    The last point, I got from the follow statement. Excuse me if I misunderstood your words due to my limited mental capacity:

     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  11. Andy California

    Andy California Member

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    Please also note that up until a certain point, I never pointed fingers at anyone and never accused of "elitism" or anything else anyone in particular, so whoever took my comments as a personal insult... whatever. But in this thread... yeah, I pointed a finger at Crotch. I'm done.
     
  12. Crotch

    Crotch Members Only Premium Member

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    You asked why the custom shop had issues. I answered by saying that the over production of guitars has done the following things:
    -Making the TH Line, CS Line, and 2014 Spec at one time cause there was no consensus in what people wanted
    -Making waaaaay to many Historics over the last few years therefore flooding the used market with cheaper than new alternatives
    -The over usage/release of the CC line leading to too many CC's that weren't great "recreations" and had no want behind them
    -The above making the pricing go up
    -The above leading to the firing of Edwin Wilson
    -The above leading to he firing of Rick Gembar

    I didn't mention the decline in quality as an issue. Although withe subtraction of Rick and Edwin who were the true overseers of the CS, who knows? Henry didn't even want the line around anymore. He wanted no mention of the word "historic" even.

    If you can't see that what I am telling you is 1) things that I believe gibson is doing internally, and 2) that the overlying point of the whole argument is business. Them competing (new) vs themselves (used) due to over-saturation then I can't help you any more than I tried.

    And whether or not you think buying a $5,000 guitar is special or not it is to me. I went through years of USA stuff before I bought a reissue. And look at you, your first Gibson is a reissue. Excuse me if I don't want to go out and pay $5K for a guitar and turn around the next day and see them for half the price on the used market. Thais not elitist, thats just caring about the money I've spent in case I have to make a move in the future.
     
  13. PierM

    PierM Premium Member

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    Gibson will never make CS guitars affordable. You keep twisting logic to pretend you have a point. Gibson does not give a damn if you cant afford their guitars. Gibson is kind of slowing down the production with reissues because they overflooded the market, please stop pissing in the wind.
     
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  14. Crotch

    Crotch Members Only Premium Member

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    How can you make a statement that "I never accused anyone of this or that", yet you then turn around and say except me? You're really a piece of work. you start all these threads about multiple subjects, and I try to answer you seriously as others poke at you and yet you decide you want to start shit with me? And yet you have made not one single ounce of sense and have contradicted yourself at every turn. Good luck in your future postings. There are plenty of good people here that will help you, maybe. I won't be one of them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
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  15. Crotch

    Crotch Members Only Premium Member

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    Thank you! Am I not stating this correctly? Is this a joke or a bit or something? I haven't figured it out yet due to my elitism and low mental capacity.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  16. mudface

    mudface Senior Member

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    :rofl::rofl:Ok..............Ok..............you are saying that whatever Crotch has said is "pointless nonsense" but what he didn't say (anything about decline in quality) as more meaningful. That is some crazy shit right there:D
     
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  17. Andy California

    Andy California Member

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    Well I went through Tokai and other makers before this.


    Come on, crotch, make up your mind. First you said you have no interest in resale value, then you say it matters a great deal to you:

    You're making me look like an arsehole while not exactly being transparent yourself.

    Resale value at the expense of afforability is a lame excuse.

    Ok, I understand that resale value is important to you, and that is a valid thing. You wish Gibson made less of them, and that's a legitimate wish. I just don't like the way you are trying to make it look... As if the only good way for Gibson to exist is to do as you wish. As if Gibson should adopt your thinking or else we're all doomed. Fine. I've expressed my objection to that. I can only imagine that the way I expressed it wasn't the best way to express it. Having gotten to the bottom of it, let's just agree to disagree.
     
  18. Andy California

    Andy California Member

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    Read it again. I know it's more entertaining to misinterpret like that and have a laugh at my expense, but please read it again or please admit that you're just enjoying having a laugh at my expense.
     
  19. PierM

    PierM Premium Member

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    I believe his entire point is that he wants Gibson keeping injecting in the market more guitars than people can buy, so that the market collapse and then he can buy those guitars for cheap.... So, in his mind, pople not happy to see their guitars losing value, just because Gibson cant manage a proper Market strategy/analysis, its elitist and selfish...and should be blamed if now Gibson fixes, and these guitars will start saving more value in the market, because then he cant buy one for cheapo.

    Like if my ass were a money printer.
     
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  20. Crotch

    Crotch Members Only Premium Member

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    You're not getting it at all. I don't care how many they make. I'm speaking in the terms of how i believe Gibson is thinking. Do you get it now?

    You're making yourself look like an asshole. Has nothing to do with me besides the fact that you keep mentioning me.
     
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