Frets on True Historics vs Originals

Discussion in 'Historics & Reissues' started by Andy California, Sep 24, 2017.

  1. Andy California

    Andy California Member

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    From what I read on this forum, True Historics have lower frets than other Historics. Does that mean original Les Pauls had those frets and therefore frets on regular (non-True) Historics were not exactly historically correct? Or is it that frets on original Les Pauls were inconsisent and they just went with the lower ones for TH?
     

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  2. JEDHRMC

    JEDHRMC Junior Member

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  3. ONEHERO

    ONEHERO Member

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    True Historics have the same frets as the originals
    The Standard Historics have modernized frets which are NOT accurate

    As for preference, it's subjective
     
  4. ARandall

    ARandall Senior Member

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    Old LP's had a variety of fret sizes. The TH could well mimic one of them - just like the one historic logo position mimics one of the positions it was in during the 50's but not all.
    Accurate or inaccurate......you will like or dislike based on your own preferences.
     
  5. Andy California

    Andy California Member

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    I just wonder how people accepted the wrong sized frets on Historics for so long. Frets must be a much greater deal than the top carve, plastics, hide glue and capacitors, finish - all of which have been obsessed over for years in this forum.
     
  6. zetrex

    zetrex Senior Member

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    I think it depends on your personal definition of "perfection" : perfect historic specs vs. the perfect feel you have when you play it. The feeling is more important to me, especially when "historic specs" may fluctuate from true vintage guitar to another (which may not be the case for fret height, I don't know).
     
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  7. freebyrd 69

    freebyrd 69 Premium Member

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    So let me guess.....this will be another thread that you start/jump into where you will start your crap about people on this forum and what is or isn't "obsessed" about.

    At least you had the common sense to leave the last thread after you got called out. Just want to make sure we intercept any road that's leading to you insinuating that we are the "elitist arrogant pricks" that you came up with in the last thread.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
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  8. jamman

    jamman Premium Member

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    From the posted link above :

    EW: “On original Les Pauls, the fretwire started out very narrow, medium height, then it went bigger. The original fretwire on ’59s was about 0.046-0.050” tall and 0.094-0.096” wide. For many years, that’s the size that we used on reissues. But on True Historic, we changed the height.

    “The one thing that you notice on every old guitar that comes in that hasn’t had jumbo frets put in over the binding is that the frets have been dressed down; they’re somewhere between 0.033” and 0.036” tall, the width is still there, but when you feel the guitar and you play the guitar, the binding is rolled and all that and you don’t feel the fret ends on the guitar. Now we start out with 0.036”-tall fretwire, then the guitars get Plekked and they get finished out, so some of them are 0.034”, some are 0.036”.


    Remember they were once called "fretless wonder" frets on Original LP's? Wonder why ???
    In 1959 , the frets were changed to a taller size ,because of the demand ,from players , for them ... That helped make the '59 LP what it is today(or at least what we think of it as) .
    Just try a Vintage 54 LP and you'll notice the difference real quick .
    Gibson makes adjustments , TO SELL GUITARS. And it appears to have worked ,imo .
     
  9. Andy California

    Andy California Member

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    I was unhappy with people "encouraging" Gibson to stop making Historics or make them super duper exclusive limited to like 100 per year overpriced instruments unattainable by plebian people like me. If that's elitist in your book, so be it. I'll stop arguing about that.
    Please note that my comment was directed at people who actually expressed a wish that Gibson stopped producing Historics or made them in ultra limited quantities (hence making the guitars even more expensive). If you were one of them, then I sort of understand why my statement could have offended you.
    I don't have anything to add on this subject.
     
  10. mudface

    mudface Senior Member

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    I'll let you know a little secrete Andy, not all the features of the Original late '50s lps were well liked, one of them was the smallish frets. The '50s Les Paul Custom had larger frets that was more desirable, so in 1959 these frets were added to the Standard. So many of the Gold tops and early Original Standards had been refretted by their owners. This was taken into consideration when the reissues were designed. Playability verses accuracy. The newish True Historics drew a lot complaints because of the smaller frets (because they wear faster). Then again some appreciated the detail. Can't please everyone.
     
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  11. PierM

    PierM Premium Member

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    OMG...here we go again.
     
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  12. Andy California

    Andy California Member

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    Thank you for a well-put explanation, mudface.

    Can't I genuinely wonder? Alright, it seems like I haven't done too much forum reading as I missed the part where people discussed the small frets (which mudface pointed out). My mistake, I admit that.
     
  13. jamman

    jamman Premium Member

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    I'll disagree with that statement . The Custom LP's were dubbed "Fretless wonders" , so Those were the guitars with the small frets . IIRC All Gibson's had them originally . Since all frets were hand finished in those days sizes didn't match the level of what we see today . Also we get frets made from different martials today .
     
  14. mudface

    mudface Senior Member

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    They were not as tall but wider than the standard fret, this is from my personal experience.
     
  15. freebyrd 69

    freebyrd 69 Premium Member

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    Can't I genuinely wonder? Alright, it seems like I haven't done too much forum reading as I missed the part where people discussed the small frets (which mudface pointed out). My mistake, I admit that.[/QUOTE]

    Nothing wrong with asking, that's for sure. I see you re-worded your OP. Cool. Just a heads up.....this forum, for the most part, is made up of really, really cool people. A very high percentage of us (like over 90%) don't have any illusions that our Reissue's are equal to or exact replicas of the real deal. People are here and buy these for different reasons. Some collect, some like to take a great starting point and mod the hell out of them (HM, MGL, personally done makeovers, whatever). Personally, I (and I know of plenty of others) buy them because they are a fantastic instrument in and of themselves. I USE them. Gig them, record with them. I don't think the fact that I own them makes me better than anyone else, or insinuate that they are better guitars than any other, because to each their own. It's just how many of us here choose to spend part (or worse yet ALL LOL) of our disposable income.

    I have been here awhile, and in that time, I have seen people reach out to other members and donate gear when they have fallen on hard times, contact other members and offer them advice and or comfort in times of need (I've personally been on both ends of that one), buy, sell, and trade with each other with honesty and trustworthiness, you name it.

    I think people were put off by some of your comments in the last thread. Nothing ever came up about your having owned one of the Reissues, or having any interest in owning one or purchasing one. It came off more like guns a blazin' accusations from a relatively new member.

    Stick around and establish yourself. You'll find this the coolest guitar forum on the net with exceptional people who will go above and beyond to answer any questions or lend a hand.
     
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  16. Crotch

    Crotch Members Only Premium Member

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    Making thousands doesn't make it any better. Main reason, IMO, that the custom shop has had the issues it has over the last 3 years. I believe right now less is more.
     
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  17. Andy California

    Andy California Member

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    freebyrd 69, got it. Thank you for explaining and for the friendly attitude :)

    Could you please name some of these issues?
     
  18. Crotch

    Crotch Members Only Premium Member

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    -Making the TH Line, CS Line, and 2014 Spec at one time cause there was no consensus in what people wanted
    -Making waaaaay to many Historics over the last few years therefore flooding the used market with cheaper than new alternatives
    -The over usage/release of the CC line leading to too many CC's that weren't great "recreations" and had no want behind them
    -The above making the pricing go up
    -The above leading to the firing of Edwin Wilson
    -The above leading to he firing of Rick Gembar

    I can go on if necessary.

    Although my actively rooting for Gibson to fail is somewhat in jest, the truth of the matter is that what they are doing now (minus all the stupid branding/name ideas) is probably the best thing they can do. Take a year or 2 and slow down the production a little. Thin out the used market, and then come back and produce a few more over the next few years.

    But I still think that making less is better overall cause you take away a flooded used market, and charge a little more instead of just keep raising the pricing and pumping them out like they're a dime a dozen. And it gives the customer a feeling that he owns something that he won't find a 1000 of the same thing online for cheaper (used).
     
  19. Andy California

    Andy California Member

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    At least, going by the list of issues you posted, that didn't result in guitars actually being lower quality. That's the most important thing in my simpleton book.

    I don't see how that is bad for buyers as they have an option of buying used guitars for less. I see how it's not good for those who want to flip their guitars each year, however, as they lose money.

    It's such a bullshit. I would say to such a customer: buy an original Les Paul or order an actual custom guitar. Or get a Bentley.
    Historic Reissue is supposed to be a semi-mass-produced affordable way to experience the legendary Les Paul guitar. It's meant to be affordable, and not an exclusive "for fat cats only" type of deal. That's what the original is for. Those who want a unique guitar with a 5-6 digit price tag can always ring the Gibson Custom Shop and order a custom guitar that is way more accurate representation of the original "burst" than any Historic has ever been or will ever be.

    I was right in the other post in the other thread afterall! I'm such an elitist pig. I don't want to start offending people on this forum, but from what you said, it's clear that you have serious first world problems, like being concerned with a perceived value of your guitar.


    CC 50s Style guitars from 2015? I found on this forum that some people actually bought those CC's. I can only imagine that if the used market didn't have what to offer potential buyers, more people would have bought the CC's as that would have been their only choice. If more people bought them, I imagine that would have only served as a sign to Gibson that they can do anything they want and people will buy it. Therefore, the overflooded market might actually contribute to Gibson keeping their act together.
    Bottom line: they stopped the production of the undesirable CC's, haven't they?
     
  20. Andy California

    Andy California Member

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    I just don't think that the only way to enjoy a nice high quality legendary Les Paul guitar should be an item of luxury reserved just for the rich and totally unavailable to plebian simpletons like me who, despite their miserble lifes, have committed to save up and unload that kind of money to get one.
    It's enough that these guitars are ridiculously expensive, so I'm glad that people who are committed can actually buy one. I strongly believe that those looking for a feeling of exclusivity should really consider calling up the Gibson Custom Shop and ordering an actual custom guitar.

    I apologize for this and for the nasty way I said things. We're talking about dream guitars here, so I can't be emotionally detached. It's easy to talk about exclusivity for those who own not one, but several Historics or other high-priced custom shop guitars... In other words, for those who can afford the exclusivity. But to me, who could barely afford to get one Historic after many years of saving up money, the statements of exclusivity are sort of like saying "we want you, plebian people, to never have one of these". I bought one not to feel exclusive or to be able to flip it for profit or not to lose money when flipping it when I get bored with it. I bought one because it's the only way to have a nice actual Les Paul that looks just right.

    Keep in mind that most of these Historics stay in the USA, so people in other parts of the world have much poorer access to these guitars anyway, combined with much higher price tags. If Gibson made them in considerably lower quantities, people in other parts of the world would be even worse off, having less choice and of course an even higher price tag.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017

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