Epi Dot vs. Sheraton - build wise

Discussion in 'Other Epiphones' started by IRG, Jan 13, 2014.

  1. Bytor1958

    Bytor1958 Senior Member

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    When or if my Dot needs work it's getting 57s and a new harness with all the upgrades. But for now it's all good.
     
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  2. mdubya

    mdubya Senior Member

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    I had played a nice 335 with 57's which was about the best sounding guitar I had ever played. The Sheraton sounds incredible with the harness and 57's. I just need it to play a little bit better (needs some fret work by a real master).
     
  3. Bytor1958

    Bytor1958 Senior Member

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    I have only been playing for 2 years. The 335 is my favorite guitar and with 57s in it that would be the best sounding guitar out there. Those pups and in a 335 are a best match for me.
     
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  4. medic24

    medic24 Senior Member

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    "eventually sold the Korean ebony Dot to a friend for his daughter."

    I've made some deals in my time but NOTHING like this!
     
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  5. Cozmik Cowboy

    Cozmik Cowboy Senior Member

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    I haven't played a Dot, but I have a '92 Sheraton that I like better than any 335 I've ever played. Alas, it got damp in a flood (just damp, thankfully) & the pots have gotten nasty. My next guitar-related expense (barring something unexpected that puts a Martin in reach) will be new guts, except probably p/ups. I can't wait to get her back up to snuff!
    Pretty as she is, and good as she sounds (well, sounded & will sound), it's the neck that really makes me love her so much; it's like they measured my hand.
     
  6. IRG

    IRG Senior Member

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    Essentially the Dot and Sheraton are similar - size is the same, basic construction, etc. The biggest difference (not including cosmetic), is that the Sheraton uses a multi piece maple neck, the Dot uses a solid mahogany. Just curious how this changes the tone. I'll probably go with the Dot, I love the cherry color, and the simpleness of it's appointments.

    Might put a good set of pickups in it, 50's wiring, that kind of thing.
     
  7. Cozmik Cowboy

    Cozmik Cowboy Senior Member

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    The Dot is an Epi version of a 335; the Sheraton is an Epi-specific model. That gives the Sheraton an edge for me (plus, it's way prettier :wow:)
    Also, every 335 I've played (and I've played them from every decade except the '50s) has a thick, half-round neck; all the the Sherries (no '50s or '70s, but all other decades) have a shallow D, which I love.
     
  8. paruwi

    paruwi Kraut-Rocker Super Mod Premium Member

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    The Epi Sheraton IS exactly an ES-335 just with with more bling
     
  9. IRG

    IRG Senior Member

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    The neck construction/materials is a little different on the Sheraton than the 335 isn't it? Otherwise I agree, the Dot and Sheraton are pretty close to the 335.
     
  10. paruwi

    paruwi Kraut-Rocker Super Mod Premium Member

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    http://epiphonewiki.com/index.php/Sheraton

    Neck constuctions have varied over the years.......
     
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  11. Mannish Boy

    Mannish Boy Senior Member

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    I have a 335 dot with burstbuckers and it gets some insane Toy Caldwell tone, plus I can feel it's body vibrate when I'm in front of my amps. I like that shy-t!!!
     
  12. Cozmik Cowboy

    Cozmik Cowboy Senior Member

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    "The Epiphone Sheraton II was introduced in 1986 and featured only one major difference. The Frequensator tail piece was now replaced by a fixed stop bar."

    The Sheraton had either the Frequensator or Tremtone, from its introduction in '58. The Sheraton II, with the stop-bar, was introduced in '64. I believe the current Shearton II, with stop-bar & full-size 'buckers, might date from '86 (a friend has an '88 in that configuration).

    The neck construction has varied some, but has mostly been 5-piece; the shape has been more consistant.
     
  13. paruwi

    paruwi Kraut-Rocker Super Mod Premium Member

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    The Sheraton II was first introduced in 1986 !

    There is no other than the current Sheraton II !

    The link to the Wiki will get you more information
     
  14. Gregzy

    Gregzy Senior Member

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    The "Sheraton II" nomenclature wasn't used until 1985 when it was attached to the first Samick Korean-made Sheratons. The purpose of designating the model as such was to differentiate it from the Matsumoku-made Japanese line of Epiphone Sheratons that were being made concurrently.The Japanese-made Sheratons went global about 1979 and ran until 1988 when the Singer Sewing Machine company, which was the parent company of Matsumoku that made the Japanese line, filed for bankruptcy. This Japanese line eventually offered both a Frequensator and a Stop Tail on Sheratons during its run but only ever offered full-sized humbuckers. The Stop Tail piece was never offered on Kalamazoo-made Sheratons though there are rare examples of custom-made Sheratons and Rivieras from the 60s that have factory original full-sized humbuckers and some even with stop tails but these are exceedingly rare:
    [​IMG][/URL][/IMG]

    I'll venture a guess that you arrived at 1964 as your introduction date of the stop tail'ed Sheraton II because in the late 90s Epiphone offered a Japanese-made/USA assembled John Lee Hooker Sheraton that was said to be "based on the 1964 Sheraton" that was offered as a "Sheraton I" with the Frequensator and a "Sheraton II" with a stop tail. This is a huge problem when the marketing people are clueless and then people are misled and we get things like "1963 Epiphone Dot Reissue" (Dots were long gone by 1963 and Epiphone never made a "Dot" to reissue in the first place or a lot of other models they've attached themselves to that they never came close to producing until they "reissued" them or simply inherited the right of use of the model name) or "New York" Mini Humbucker (It had been nearly ten years since Epiphone had been anywhere near New York when Gibson invented the "Mini PAF Humbucker" so where did the "New York" nonsense come from?...yes, there was a "New York" pickup but it was a single coil. This is also why while compiling a lot of ad and catalog copy and reiterating it as a "resource" is a gallant and noble endeavor and the effort and motivation most appreciated, catalogs and worse, "interviews" (which are actually just promotional materials as well) are horrible sources and rarely accurate. This is why it's imperative that there is preexisting background knowledge and experience to look behind the statements and specifications before spewing what is essentially advertising as established fact. I see a lot of marketing influenced opinions made here as factual product testimony. Garbage in/Garbage out.

    This is a 1958/59 Sheraton which makes it one of the earliest:
    [​IMG][/URL][/IMG]
     
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  15. Cozmik Cowboy

    Cozmik Cowboy Senior Member

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    Nice '58!

    The '90s JLH was offered as the Sheraton (not I) with Frequensator, and Sheraton II with stop-bar, like the '64 models; and the ads were accopmanied by vintage pix of John Lee with each of his '64s, II & non-II.

    I'll tell you what I tell my history students - if it has Wiki in the name, it's not a source. You can find some good info on wikis, but by definition they're not reliable, as anyone can write anything on them.
     
  16. paruwi

    paruwi Kraut-Rocker Super Mod Premium Member

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    You can't write the history of the Epi Sheraton new

    and it is NOT an Open Wiki ......

    So not every wannabe can add his personal
    Truth
     
  17. Gregzy

    Gregzy Senior Member

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    My point was that in "promotional materials" and "ad copy" the reissued Hooker Sheratons were alluded to as being based upon "1964" models. There was never a '64 Sheraton (with the rare and possible exception of a special order) with a stop tail piece but the promo materials and ads (and you have as well) referred to them both as "Hooker's 1964 Sheraton(s)). I've seen most of the "vintage pix" of Hooker you've cited and if you look closely you'll see that a. The photos with him holding a stop tail piece Sheraton were from the early 90s and the subject guitar is a Samick/Korean-made model from post-1988. B. The vintage photos have Hooker playing either a 1952/1953 Gibson Gold Top Les Paul, A Guild Blues Bird, an early 60s Gibson (Not Stathopoulo or Asian) made Epiphone Zephyr Electric (model-E 311TN), a Dot-necked '58-'61 Gibson ES-335, a Gibson-made mid/late 60s ES-335 with a trap tail piece and block markers or a mid/late 60s cherry red Epiphone Sheraton with a Frequensator. The so-called "64 Sheratons Hooker actually used in that time period were most probably a pre-'64 and post-'64 Gibson ES-335. The Hooker associated Epiphone was a Zephyr Electric but Epiphone wasn't trying to sell one of those so it became a Sheraton.

    The game is called product validation through high profile endorsement. In the early 90s Gibson was trying to change its Epiphone line's brand and market perception and the brand identity so it went searching for known artists who may have once played Epiphones. Sort of like instant product credibility. About once a week here you'll find a thread here that's either someone spotted someone playing an Epiphone on Jimmy Fallon or they've made a list of Epiphone users...most of whom never came close to using the products that are today's Epiphones but there's Macca or Lennon or Keef or some other high profile artist in a forty five year old photo holding said Epiphone with the ad copy singing the praises of something they've probably never even actually seen in person. Along with that comes the hyperbole and hyper extension of reality that is marketing.

    So when I see catalog copy and specifications I expect them to be exaggerated and I take it with a grain of salt. When I read an interview with Henry J or Berryman or Jimmy Rosenberg (or Paul Reed Smith or Bob Taylor or the leader of any other brand) I certainly don't expect any honest insight and analysis of their products, I expect a line of bovine colon packing carefully gauged and presented to give credibility and validation where there perhaps isn't any. Yes, grownups know (usually) not to believe everything they read or see on television (or the Internetz) or at least how to differentiate between factual information and marketing schlock...or at least they should. This goes for Wiki-Pedia as well. Anyone can create a Wiki and publish anything that pops into their vapid little heads and present it as unimpeachable truth. Once upon a time I was associated with the original Epiphone Wiki and when they talked of creating a reference source I felt the same as I do now. Without adequate citation and third party confirmation it may be a bigger disservice to present questionable information than to present nothing.

    Some of those here take delight in the fact that the Guitar Dater is no longer a valid resource for dating instruments but once upon a time it helped a hell of a lot of people but back when I was asked to help with it I also offered the caveat that erroneous information is worse than no information. I hate to criticize the EpiWiki because the gentleman most responsible for it (Robin/RTH) is a hard working and honorable person whose motivation and intentions are honest and it does offer a great deal of valid information. Of course there are always hangers on that jump on board hoping to grab some credit though they have nothing themselves to offer but you'll have that with anything. I just feel that even if you're only reiterating catalog specs and copy it still must be done with a balance of skepticism and questioning and not simply copied verbatim. A simple disclaimer that the information contained herein originated in texts and materials out of control of the author and though every attempt at confirmation has been made, it is impossible to verify everything solves that problem.
     
  18. RTH

    RTH €piphoneWiki Team V.I.P. Member

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    :lol:



    I'll be the first to admit that the wiki has its inaccuracies, but we try to fix them when presented to us. Most likely, you'll find more truth in the wiki than any Epiphone interview or promotional ad of days gone by. But that was my intent from the start...and I knew it would always be an uphill battle. New York Humbuckers be damned.

    Gregzy, I had no idea you were involved in the Guitar Dater Project at the beginning. Thats pretty cool. I'm not rejoicing that it is inaccurate, but I do wish that it was updated instead of being left to rot.
     
  19. rem22

    rem22 Senior Member

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    Hi Mark,

    Is your casino significantly louder unplugged than you other hollows ? I know it's full hollow body vs semi hollowbody like the dot and 335....
    I'm asking because I'd like a guitar that can sound great plugged, but also unplugged, most of time I play at bedroom levels....or unplugged.

    And the weight...is the casino lighter than others ? Well balanced ?

    Thanks
     
  20. IRG

    IRG Senior Member

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    Some cool posts here, and obviously some very knowledgeable people here as well. Is there a book written that is the "definitive" book on all things Epiphone? Sort of a history, as well as a listing of all the past - current models made by Epiphone? It would take a lot of research obviously, and it seems like some of the models clearly have a less than well documented history as to their creation. But it would be cool if something like this existed, especially in a nice hard cover version with some great pics. If there is something like that, let me know. If not...
     

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