CITES update

Discussion in 'Historics & Reissues' started by goodvibes, Dec 11, 2016.

  1. RAG7890

    RAG7890 Premium Member

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    :hmm:............without Cites stupid Humans would still be buying stuff like Ivory, Gorilla Hands, Rhino Horn & chopping down Trees like there was no tomorrow etc. etc. etc.

    Sure it is a PIA but you can handle any of this legally with the right paperwork.

    My 2c FWIW.

    :cheers2:
     
  2. FKO

    FKO Senior Member

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    What CITES did is giving those "stuff" a halo. Humans are still buying them but with a premium. And humans wants them even more, now with the halo attached.

    humans' obsession or "sickness"; the more you can't have it, the more you want it. And it has little to nothing to do with medical or tonal improvements.
     
  3. RAG7890

    RAG7890 Premium Member

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    While I don't necessarily disagree with the above if it were not for the regulations we probably wouldn't have any Elephants left or much of anything for that matter.

    Sure, we don't live in a perfect World but the World is definitely a better place with stricter controls, even if some of them are silly.

    My 2c FWIW.

    :cheers2:
     
  4. L96A1

    L96A1 Senior Member

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    Post a pic of the board and lets find out.:D
     
  5. KenG

    KenG Senior Member

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    So musical intruments will suffer because China likes to use endangered woods for furniture? Like that will stop a country that scoffs at any international laws.
     
  6. THDNUT

    THDNUT Senior Member

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    I wouldn't be surprised if China was still buying Brazilian rosewood. :laugh2:
     
  7. thunderstruck

    thunderstruck Member

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    Sounds like a good regulation that hurts companies for Trump to get rid of!:fingersx:
     
  8. Truth011

    Truth011 Senior Member

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    But will they or more precisely can they enforce it?
     
  9. GrinningElk

    GrinningElk MLP Vendor

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    Well said, Rudi. Just gotta do a little paperwork and pay a fine. Is this an unusual thing in any of our lives?
     
  10. Lefty Adams

    Lefty Adams Senior Member

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    I totally agree, the rainforests and animals are much more important than a bunch of ****ing guitar fretboards imo ...
     
  11. jamman

    jamman Premium Member

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    Thanks OP for posting this important info ...

    Agree that prices will go up .... Think any business wont make some profit on having to provide paper work for every guitar they make ?? OK ..... Wait and see . Funny those who think they will absorb any cost and not pass it along and add a small profit with each 1 ... :lol:

    Buy your guitars soon , if you don't want to wait Months on end, to actually get it .

    Since no business can predict the future(what a customer might do with it in the future) , they would need to supply a document for every unit produced at the time of mfg.....
    Or,,, should they have computer records made and maintained to have sitting and waiting for a request made to have it produced ....?
    Nightmare in the making .....
    Try getting any info about a guitar made 25 years ago at Gibson :lol: good luck with that :thumb:



    Really good thing for me ... if things go south fast here in the USA ,,, I have a place to go .... Babes , Beaches , Beer (Brazilians really know how to party ) and all the BRW I can store :laugh2: What A life. :cool:

    Sct13 .... BRW can be had . it's difficult now , but possible. $$$ talks (big time), in Brazil .
    Want a BRW acoustic .... PM me .....:naughty:
     
  12. nikku

    nikku Senior Member

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    I'm all for protecting endangered species but I think they have gone a little too far this time. I work for the Japanese Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, which deal with CITES documents and this is going to be a nightmare.

    As I understand it this decision to include ALL rosewood under CITES Appendix II is due to the Chinese thirst for rosewood furniture. As it is very hard to distinguish between different species they would be imported as non-endangered species. This is why they had to add that this new Rosewood law wood apply to even finished products, which is unprecedented for Appendix II items.

    Fair enough to add real endangered species, but then it is up to customs to enforce that. Not just do a blanket ban. At least have an exception for musical instruments or for under a certain mass of rosewood that would exclude furniture. As stated in a previous post, App II used to be only for raw lumber over a certain size, not finished products. You are free to trade in APP II items but you need to apply for permission for each item.

    It is not a simple matter of filling out some forms and paying the fee. The forms are very complicated, you would need to get permission from CITES, plus the export control agency of the exporting country, plus from the importing country. This takes months and is a huge hassle (deliberately so)

    If guitar manufacturers have to do this for each guitar they send overseas it will be a killer. I believe there are some provisions that allow a license for producers that streamline it slightly, but still a major hassle. It also means that only the big boys can play. Here in Japan you will only be able to get rosewood guitars from the major dealers that can handle it.

    It certainly means no ordering from shops overseas anymore or selling internationally. This will affect businesses big time.

    Certainly people will be playing more Les Paul Customs and maple neck strats!
     
  13. goodvibes

    goodvibes Premium Member

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    I found the following in the FAQ for the Lacey Act:

    " Do I have to declare hand carried items such as passenger baggage?
    Currently, the Lacey Act Plant and Plant Product Declaration is only required for products imported into the United Sates as a Formal Entry. Items in passenger baggage or personal items travelling with a person do not require a declaration. For example, if you are travelling with your personal guitar, you are not required to declare the plant material in the guitar. It should be noted that there may be other requirements associated with the international movement of musical instruments, such as the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) or the U.S. Endangered Species Act (ESA), depending on the species that make up the instrument. If you have questions regarding CITES or ESA, please contact U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service at
    lawenforcement@fws.gov."

    And also:

    "Do I have to declare musical instruments coming from or going to a performance?
    Musical Instruments transported for performance purposes do not require a Lacey Act Plant and Plant Product Declaration. Only musical instruments being commercially imported as a Formal Consumption Entry would require a declaration. It should be noted that there may be other requirements associated with the international movement of musical instruments, such as the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) or the U.S. Endangered Species Act (ESA), depending on the species that make up the instrument. If you have questions regarding CITES or ESA, please contact U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service at lawenforcement@fws.gov

    So it appears that the Lacey act requirements are not as much of a problem as CITES could potentially be, especially if the guitar was made before May 22, 2008. I'm still reading the CITES instructions. The more I read the more questions and concerns I have😰.
     
  14. PermissionToLand

    PermissionToLand Senior Member

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    Thank you for the informed comment.

    Do you think they seek to confiscate illegal woods through customs? It seems to me this would be the only reason to require documentation for everything.
     
  15. ARandall

    ARandall Senior Member

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    The distributor would be the only person required to fill out import details.....o/s stores rarely deal directly with Gibson USA.

    If rosewood got to the point of becoming hard to ship/source due to this new regulation then you might see some specific exemptions written into the legislation and/or bulk applications of paperwork being implemented.
     
  16. nikku

    nikku Senior Member

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    No idea how far this will be enforced. People have been shipping Brazilian Rosewood guitars around the world and I have not heard of one being seized through my personal experience only. Ironically a friend of mine had a guitar returned due to them suspecting Brazilian (it wasn't!) but it does show people are checking. This was Germany that is notoriously strict.

    There is a stipulation that for under 10Kg and for non-commercial there is an exemption. However no idea how they will define or enforce that.
     
  17. FourT6and2

    FourT6and2 Senior Member

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    lol wow. What you need to ask yourself is who is the author of that Reverb article. And are they a qualified source? The answer is probably not.

    Guess what, I recently bought a (new) guitar from Belgium and had it shipped here to me in the US. I had to fill out CITES paperwork to get it cleared through Customs. It was NOT. A. BIG. DEAL.

    You literally write in what wood is in the guitar. That's it. A Customs agent in Pennsylvania doesn't know the difference between Maple and Ebony. Let alone the difference between Bubinga from Ghana and Buginga from the Ivory Coast. And you are not required to provide and real proof. You simple write in, "Neck: Wenge [Latin name], country of origin. Body: Mahogany [Latin name], country of origin. etc.." Is that really so difficult?

    Come 2017, you will be fine. You'll still be able to travel with your instruments. Nobody is going to take them away from you at the airport. The cop at the TSA or Customs booth isn't gonna give a **** about your guitar. You will still be able to ship your instruments. There will be nothing different about that process. If you buy an instrument from a COMMERCIAL/RETAIL dealer, THEY are responsible for filling out the CITES paperwork and including it in the shipment. If you are selling and buying a USED instrument from a PRIVATE PARTY on eBay or something, you will be just fine. Some countries are more strict than others, but that has nothing to do with CITES. For example, Germany takes it upon itself to be more anal about things like this. Even though CITES doesn't care.

    Here is the ACTUAL document from CITES concerning any decisions taking effect in 2017: https://cites.org/sites/default/files/eng/dec/valid17/E17-Dec.pdf

    Here is the ACTUAL link to the CITES listing what species are regulated and how: https://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.php

    Here is the ACTUAL link to the CITES Appendicies I, II, and III taking effect in 2017: https://cites.org/sites/default/files/notif/E-Notif-2016-068-A.pdf
     
  18. FourT6and2

    FourT6and2 Senior Member

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    You are the only voice of reason here lol ;)
     
  19. Ph03n1x

    Ph03n1x Senior Member

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    I'm still having issues getting CITES officials in Aus and Canada to confirm I can being my guitars in with no issues. I was going to ship them with a few other belongings. I think it will be tricky to fly with 7 guitars... They told me it is fine if the guitar weighs less than 10kg in the box. Some people seem to interpret what CITES says as only 10kg of rosewood (ie only a few grams with a fretboard). That isn't how it sounded in the email response I got from them though.
     
  20. oldflame

    oldflame Senior Member

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