Can A Die-Hard Vintage Tube Amp Player Be Convinced.............

Discussion in 'Amp Modeling' started by NotScott, Oct 27, 2017.

  1. Brewdude

    Brewdude Senior Member

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    Yeah I tend to stay out of the debates because it usually devolves into people restating their point for the millionth time with nothing getting accomplished. I love my tube amps and have no real need or desire to get rid of them but if I ever do I could absolutely envision a Kemper to replace the whole arsenal.

    Thats basically how I use my Amplifire, when I want something whisper quiet to use it when Im just noodling around practicing. I don't have any amps with FX loops but actually used to run it through my Fender and agreed it sounded a little more warm that way. Im actually in the minority and enjoy the Fender tones from it more than I do the Marshall presets, but thats what great about all this technology, we all can find what we like :cheers:
     
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  2. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    That, in essence is all some of have been trying to pronounce.
     
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  3. Pwrmac7600

    Pwrmac7600 Premium Member

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    The more I read these posts, The more I am starting to think I need to buy a kemper and do my own comparison with the Axe FX. The only few things I am uncertain of with the kemper is;

    1, a profile is a snapshot of an amp with it's controls set a certain way. The EQ section and gain control on the Kemper are not really designed to mimic the controls or the real amp (pot taper, pot value, etc...), so if you deviate to far from flat you begin to drastically depart from the actual tone of the amp that was profiled. So that would then mean you would need a profile that is kinda set to your preferred settings, no? For example, as much as people say the Kemper takes pedals well, the reality is, if you throw a SD1 in front of a profile of a JCM800 there is no way it can react the same as a real world pedal and amp, because the profile is set in stone, the reaction of the amp is kind of already baked in. A profile can not fundamentally change the way it reacts from no pedal in front to pedal in front...

    I get why alot of pro's tour with them, because they can go into a studio ahead of time and profile their own touring rig setup exactly how they use it, and then there is no reason for them to deviate from that. But when using a set of profiles made by someone else, you are kinda stuck with however they profiled the amp.

    And 2, I am not really clear on how profiles work with Cabinet simulation. Are profiles taken with a mic'ed cab, or are they taken with a DI, and mic'ed cab so you have separate control over the two. If a profile was shot with mic and cab only, then how can I change the cabinet model to an IR of a speaker I prefer?
    These pieces are really the only 2 pieces that hold me back from trying out a kemper.

    These are probably the 2 primary reasons I went with the Axe Fx over the Kemper to begin with, but the more I hear clips of the Kemper the more I am becoming convinced that I need to at least try it...
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
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  4. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Double Platinum Supporter Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Well for me Kempers lack of a real software suite is a no deal for me. AXE EDIT is worth the entry price all by itself.

    But your points are spot on about profiling someones favorite tube amp. Yes in that case. But for me, creating new tones is more of what I do and not ever profiling. I have nothing left to profile.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
  5. Pwrmac7600

    Pwrmac7600 Premium Member

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    But from what I have come to realize in my researching Kemper, I think the reason there is no software interface like the Axe FX is because as I stated above, the profile is really in essence designed to be used as it sits. unlike a model in the Axe where it is designed more or less to simulate every single aspect of the amp it is modeling. So in essence you would need more control over the Axe Fx than you would over the Kemper, simply because of the nature of the two.
    I watched a great video yesterday that really went over the controls of the Kemper, and it demonstrated how inaccurate the tone controls are, and if you deviate to far from flat the amp started to sound nothing like it was supposed to. The maker of the video explained that the EQ section is more like a console EQ after the amp than it is a mimic of the actual amps tone controls. which makes sense after hearing what drastic changes on the tone controls do to the profile.
     
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  6. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Double Platinum Supporter Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    For sure there are distinct differences between the two. This is why the AXE has so many amp models. It is to give the user/player the broadest array of tones and options possible. For me that is the excitement of it. Not to mention the rediculous tone possible
     
  7. Pwrmac7600

    Pwrmac7600 Premium Member

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    Don't necissarily want to profile my own amps, alot of the profile packs out there by M. Britt, and Top jimi sound amazing. I just worry more about the EQ options of the profiles in the packs.
     
  8. Pwrmac7600

    Pwrmac7600 Premium Member

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    @frankv we should probably stop dominating the thread before someone complains and we get banned from this one too. :Ohno:
     
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  9. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Double Platinum Supporter Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    For sure profiling ones favorite amps is a major factor in which to by, cost being no factor. In Scott's case I see he has a strong need to capture his amps and make his load in and out easier. I can see that.

    I don't think there is a better /worse choice no matter which is chosen. Tools for a job at hand. For me, and besides AXE EDIT.. It's the incredible recording interface inside AXE FX that I find very useful. What we have learned, recording for many or most on this site is less of a concern.
     
  10. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Double Platinum Supporter Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Never thought of that Mike. Now you got me thinking
     
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  11. paruwi

    paruwi Kraut-Rocker Super Mod Premium Member

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    You ask for it with troll-comments like this....
     
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  12. Pwrmac7600

    Pwrmac7600 Premium Member

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    Can I post in a thread without you feeling the need to comment? Starting to feel like I am being stalked...
    There is no need for you to come in and ruin yet another thread by tossing insults and giving your two cents. But I'm sure you'll probably say you received a complaint and that's why you are here....
     
  13. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

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    Looking at it now, I probably should have gone Kemper. When I got my Helix there wasn't too much out there on the Kemper, and nobody could really give a first hand account.....

    I am happy with the Helix, but really my goal was to mimic my tube rig in a smaller package. The Kemper would have done it perfectly, lol. Oh well. Maybe someday - but for now I am totally pleased with the Helix.
     
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  14. paruwi

    paruwi Kraut-Rocker Super Mod Premium Member

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    There was no need for your troll comment!

    You asked for it - You'll get it

    see you in two weeks
    and if you'll continue with this behaviour
    or bore me with whiny PMs
    the vacations will get longer
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
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  15. LtDave32

    LtDave32 Sua Sponte Super Mod Premium Member

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    Wrong. YOU are derailing the thread with unwarranted, uncalled for comments like this:

    What does the above comment from YOU have to do with this thread?

    This is why there is a problem, because you simply won't let the issue alone.

    Constant bellyaching. Constant vitriol. Constant "sour grapes". Constant derailment into personal issues that have NOTHING to do with these threads.

    And this one was humming along just fine, amicable, informative, well-written and friendly . -until YOU showed up.


    YOU make our job harder.

    Leave it alone. Final warning.
     
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  16. paruwi

    paruwi Kraut-Rocker Super Mod Premium Member

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    too late
     
  17. drew365

    drew365 Senior Member

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    Childish behavior from both sides = a really boring place to hang out. That's all you'll hear from me, no need for a ban!
     
  18. paruwi

    paruwi Kraut-Rocker Super Mod Premium Member

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    see above
     
  19. NotScott

    NotScott Silver Supporter Premium Member

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    Getting back to the intended topic of discussion, I didn't get into the UI differences between the Kemper and Axe because it wasn't one of my main criteria. For MY needs, I needed something that sounded and felt like my vintage amps but was easier to use for live gigs. The Kemper checked all of those boxes for me.

    A UI like the Axe would be nice and make some tasks more efficient. However, it's really not needed for the Kemper due to its approach to digital simulations and the thoughtful and well designed front panel controls. Remember, the Kemper's approach is different. Kemper's approach to tube amp simulation does not require all of the deep editing that Axe offers. If you start with a great tone, you shouldn't need a lot of tweaking and if you do, like I said earlier, you started with the wrong profile or bought the wrong unit for your needs. However, if you do like to tweak, the Kemper offers plenty of parameters to fine tune both amplifier and cabinet responses to do what you want. Although the tone stack is more like a console strip EQ than the actual amp controls (which is how it should be when you think about Kemper's approach), they are very effective and thoughtfully centered. That being said, if you have ever compared JMI Vox, PTP Marshalls or tweed Fenders side by side like I have, you would notice real quick that even when identical amps are setup identically, they all sound different and they respond differently to similar control changes. In my experience with the Kemper so far, I find the gain control to provide me with more control than what I could ever achieve with the real amp and the other parameters provide me with all of the tone and response shaping I will ever need.

    Kemper studio profiles have the cab and mic "baked in" so to speak. You can do a direct profile of just the amp and use the Kemper IRs or import your own. Or you can make a merged profile which consists of both of the above and use that to obtain an accurate cab IR. Even if you only have studio profiles, Kemper uses an algorithm to separate the cab sound and allow you to basically turn the cab simulation off and use a conventional guitar cabinet. Is it perfectly accurate? No, it's a mathematical approximation. However, it sounds accurate enough to my ears and in digital world where everything is a mathematical approximation anyway, I am not anguishing over the authenticity of any digital device's interpretation of some 50 year old, beat to hell Celestion Blue with buzzing bell cover, sagging cones and rotting surrounds.

    The Kemper and Axe are different tools with different approaches for different players. You just need to do your homework and find the right tool for YOU and YOUR needs.
     
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  20. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

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    Cool. @NotScott - info like what you are providing would have certainly swayed me to a Kemper. I got Helix almost right after it was released, and the info on the Kemper was scarce. Seemed VERY complicated based on the info that WAS available.

    The first time I really got a good sense of what the Kemper REALLY did was after talking to a German guitarist in a band I opened for. At that point I was like, "AHHH" - but I wasn't about to drop another couple G's on a piece of "alternate amplification". Plus, I had already sold most of my tube rigs, lol.

    I will say that your testimonial is GREAT and ULTRA informative.
     
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