Calling out Detlef @ Guitarpoint in Frankfurt am Main

Discussion in 'Vintage Les Pauls' started by Razzle Dazzle, Jan 28, 2018.

  1. Razzle Dazzle

    Razzle Dazzle Premium Member

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    Since I got pointed to a resurrected [link removed] from the LP forum where Tom Wittrock is posting (clearly in Detlefs words), I thought I might add some more spice to all of this!

    Yes, it is definitely time for me to join this conversation over here...

    Anyone who took it apart can argue with Eric E. about it being a Burst and not a Goldtop, he confirmed it is a Goldtop and he's the most repsected guy in the business!

    Anybody who bought a set of DMC rings can see in these pictures that those rings are DMC but to be clear on all the parts issues: Pickguard was a badly recut P-90 guard, top hats where DMC (2 original), DMC knob pointers, fake toggle switch cover, fake toggle switch tip, one pot changed, all screws basically non original, pickguard bracked DMC (can celarly be seen from the picture), non original bridge & non original nut...

    It sure is Tom, and I'm not sure you are standing on the right side of it. I know Detlef doesn't post on any of the forums but all you have said so far suspiciously sounds like your pushing his words...

    I am the guy who bought it from Detlef so let's get some of this stuff straight!

    I was aware of most of the issues indeed, the reneck, the refinish & the non-original recut guard. Detlef told me straight to my face that the rings where original (I later on confirmed they are DMC, so did Mr. Ernest when he visited me this summer) and he did not have multiple guards laying around in his office like Willy Wonka has chocolate bars! Detlef had exactly that one guard he gave me, he took it out of his personal safe and insured me that it was an original late 50's guard he took off some les paul during the years, he even said that the guard is worth around 8000$ and he's giving it to me for free out of courtesy. The 2 PAF pickups are original ones and got swaped by Detlef...

    Those "experts" you are referring to, who are those experts? You sure are not speaking about Mr. Alder or are you? On the other hand we have Eric E., the most respect guy in the business, so maybe you should talk with him if you stand by it being a '58 Burst and not a refinished '58 Goldtop. There are many pictures from the early 70's to 80's showing a really dark back and a non gibson burst pattern, there is even still dark brown dye in the back cavities from when it was a Goldtop...

    Yes it has been renecked and that was disclosed when it was sold, you are completel right on that! I don't get most of the things you are talking about since my english is probably not good enough but man are you wrong on the stuff I understand!

    The amp was pitched to me by one of his shop guys, Fred, during the time I bought one of my '59s @ Guitarpoint. The amp was taken apart, meticulously documented and authenticated by Detlef to be 100% original except for one changed pot. I did buy a '52 Goldtop for 12k€ from Detlef and traded that guitar to his staff member for the amp he authenticated as original, all the deal & paperwork was handled by Guitarpoint & Detlef as well so...

    Did I ever complain with Detlef about the fake Marshall? I did never even attempt to give it back, I'm actually selling it for 4k$ as the replica it is. So how do I make some kind of victim out of myself again? You sure went a long way from offering me Sandy a few years back to attacking me openly because some dude in Germany, who you hang out with at least once a year, does shady business with his customers. So much to realities and being close to one, shady pool...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2018
  2. RAG7890

    RAG7890 Premium Member

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    All I can say is if Eric says these are the facts, then I believe Eric. He has a stellar reputation & knows what he's talking about.

    The rest of them..............not so much.

    Pack of thieves & ship of fools IMHO.

    We have them here in Australia as well................a$$holes, the whole lot of them.

    My 2c FWIW.

    :cheers2:
     
  3. Razzle Dazzle

    Razzle Dazzle Premium Member

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    BTW The thread on the LP Forum was dead for 2 years, the guy who necroposted and resurrected the discussion over there after I called Detlef out over here, FlyingFred67, is actually Fred. Yes, the Fred who owned and pitched the fake Marshall amp to me. Staff member @ Guitarpoint...
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  4. eric ernest

    eric ernest V.I.P. Member

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    Um, actually, it was dead for 6 years.... :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:
     
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  5. devin dude

    devin dude Senior Member

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    Sorry this has happened , but this thread will most likely be censored or deleted.

    Stuff like this never ends well , for either party , sides will be taken right or wrong.

    This is part of the game like it or not , trust should never ever be assumed no matter the buyer or seller.

    It should be settled off line and litigated in a court of law , if applicable.

    Understand your anger , many folks whom bought or sold vintage guitars encounter this problem , it goes with

    the territory unfortunately , IMO,OMMV.
     
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  6. yeti

    yeti Senior Member

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    Not a big fan of the forum cross contamination, just saying. I like it here because that usually doesn't happen much anymore. This might be a good time to move the discussion over there, because you all know how it's going to end when forums get into the thick of discussions like this, not a pretty sight to see, IMO.
    And Devin Dude is right, settle it offline or go to court.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
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  7. CRobbins

    CRobbins Premium Member

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  8. d1m1

    d1m1 Senior Member

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    the other forum is ruled by a handfull of old people which support and whitewash each other to increase prices and fool folks. if somebody speaks out the truth he gets banned. there is no freedom of speech or justice.
     
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  9. Thumpalumpacus

    Thumpalumpacus Senior Member

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    Actually, I like a good public flogging of scamsters. I'd be surprised if this thread is "censored", too. One thing I respect about the staff here is their willingness to help victims get the word out.
     
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  10. Razzle Dazzle

    Razzle Dazzle Premium Member

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    I hope not, in contrast to the LP forum this forum is not sponsored by Guitarpoint...

    I'm neither but when I got pointed at the thread over there where Fred necroposted in a 6 year old thread just for Tom Wittrock to start openly bashing me, I thought it might be time to join the conversation and link the conversation here in case it gets deleted there. I would have let this whole thing go with me calling him out, but it looks like Detlef and his fingers won't. I have the option of going to court on Detlef in mind since the beginning of all of this, I decided against that since I would not take him to court over the '58 or the fake Marshall. I got way bigger stuff on the guy than that and I actually don't wanna go as far as ruining someones business. I rather have the internet decide his fate, I only want people so see this and nothing more...

    Yup it sure is, Tom sounds like a grumpy old man that lives in a hermit. I do think there is nothing more to expect from those guys over there tho...

    Vintage only, as long as you don't get them appraised by a real expert...:rofl:

    Screen Shot 2018-02-04 at 12.41.09.png
     
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  11. paruwi

    paruwi Kraut-Rocker Super Mod Premium Member

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    temporary
    edit: perma
    closed-1.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  12. VictorB

    VictorB Formerly LZF Super Mod

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    Reopened with links removed.
     
  13. chasenblues

    chasenblues Senior Member

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    [​IMG]

    So there..:laugh2:
     
  14. Thumpalumpacus

    Thumpalumpacus Senior Member

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    Thanks to the Staff for riding herd on this thread. Good job!
     
  15. mdubya

    mdubya Senior Member

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    I really enjoyed the Ali Neander videos.
     
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  16. frozenotter

    frozenotter Prominent Member (has a) Premium Member

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    I'll keep this in mind and refrain from any business with him.
     
  17. devin dude

    devin dude Senior Member

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    Flyingfred67 , not to put words in your mouth, your saying , without saying , someone could have taken the org. parts ,misrepresented them after the the fact ?

    Lets say in this detailed photography , some parts were replaced or down right stolen?

    How dose one vouch the original parts weren't swapped after the video, photos where the org. parts were shown on the guitar , but were swapped after the fact?

    How dose one prove that?
     
  18. Crotch

    Crotch Support MLP Veterans & Vendors Double Platinum Supporter Premium Member

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    I wouldn't pay any attention to the other forum. Those guys are way to into themselves.
     
  19. eric ernest

    eric ernest V.I.P. Member

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    The following are comments made by Fred from Guitar point's now deleted post:

    My comments are in yellow.




    Plus that it wasn‘t an officially shop offered Les Paul at that time and Detlef didn‘t intended to sell it at all?

    Do you have a written documentation that this highly molested guitar had its original M69 Rings when you bought it?

    Fred,

    Isnt it prudent for any shop to ALWAYS provide documents like this on high-end purchases?




    Same with the original Conti modified pickguard that you didn‘t wanted where Detlef gave you another one which you could even choose?

    Why was Gregory even given a FAKE pickguard to choose from???




    I have paid myself a high 5 Digit Sum for it so maybe even me got frauded if it really is a fake which I don‘t believe it is.

    The Marshall is totally a FAKE. Should we dissect it here in front of everyone and embarrass the hell out of you and Guitar Point?



    Dear Gregory, dear Eric & Friends

    Please address me and Gregory as distinctly different individuals. We do not have the same dog in this hunt.



    Any Vintage Electric is completely disassembled, all parts cleaned up and fotographed, measured and documented doesn’t matter if a Mustang or a Burst.

    If you are doing this to every guitar part including M69 rings, height adjustment screws, and PAF’s, what you are doing is tantamount to rape.

    You are destroying many details used to authenticate a vintage guitar! Damn near criminally stupid.




    This data is completely handed out to the customer buying the guitar with an Instrument Profile and a CD with all pictures.

    Except for Gregory’s Burst AND Marshall.



    A professional Video Team shoots Videos all 6-8 Weeks from all available new instruments. The Guitars and Amps are presented at the shop homepage with up to over 20 high resolution pics.

    Again, except Gregory’s.....



    Nonetheless sometimes a customer is unhappy or disssatisfied, so what ? This experience happens regularly to any shop & dealer

    Wake up..... It’s not a “regular “ occurrence at credible shops.



    The Les Paul Custom bought by Richard Henry who wanted to test GPs Service capabilities 4 years ago was immeditely taken back and refunded

    I'm familiar with this. Obvious issues were not disclosed. I should have listened to Richard then, my bad.




    Eric Ernest says :

    „But there have been MANY people who have bought instruments from Guitar Point that have not been accurately presented. (Richard Henry among them.) „ How does he know?

    Because I’ve been doing this for 25+ years and people TALK.



    Did he never had to take back an Instrument from an unhappy customer?

    I can honestly say I don’t remember the last time that happened....but I’m not trying to move hundreds of guitars a year either.



    Had he described all issues of Memphis Mojo accurately on his internet page when offering it?

    You're clueless, Fred. The Memphis Mojo is probably the single most photographed Burst of all time. It has been photographed and discuss HERE ad nauseam.

    The MLPF Memphis Mojo thread has over 130,000+ views. So what has not been discussed or disclosed? Don't make accusations YOU cant stand behind!


    http://www.mylespaul.com/threads/1959-gibson-les-paul-standard-guitar-9-0821-detailed-photos.55674/


    It was never publicly offered. Never. I sure never offered it to you. Gregory was offered the Mojo in the FIRST original list of the 12 or so people I offered it to. I still have every single email in a folder....

    Detlef did however, try to smear the Memphis Mojo when Gregory asked him about the guitar before he bought it.




    This rude attack is not about a Les Paul Goldtop sold as a Burst. Very sad that this completley unnecessary action in public had no chance to be clarified.

    When you won’t even admit that your Marshall was a poorly done FAKE, why would anyone expect any different outcome from your shop?

     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
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  20. Jblpplayer

    Jblpplayer V.I.P. Member

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    Gentlemen, I have to say a few things.. 1. I am sorry to hear anytime a deal goes bad and a collector feels lets just say dissatisfied. I think it is bad for everyone who is into this hobby and for the community in general. I have bought many guitars including a burst from Detlef and consider him a friend and one of the good guys in this business. As far as the Les Paul Forum backing sponsors over collectors because of an annual honorarium is total BS. As a 1/4th owner of the place (yes the rumor is true) I can tell you for a fact that the truth comes first, the integrity of the site and the customer is always right. Anyway... I hope that it gets resolved for Razzle Dazzle and life can go on. And PS.. I tend to burn up one Fender amp a week because of one reason or another ... Thats the nature of that beast. As for Marshalls... buy heads and 4x12 cabs.. Much safer !!

    Happy New Year and sorry its been so long..

    Joe B
     

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