Calling out Detlef @ Guitarpoint in Frankfurt am Main

Discussion in 'Vintage Les Pauls' started by Razzle Dazzle, Jan 28, 2018.

  1. Thermionik

    Thermionik Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,038
    Likes Received:
    33,073
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    .
    .

    :thumb: Wax :thumbs: (and something in-between)
    .
    .
     
    Bobby Mahogany likes this.
  2. reznor

    reznor Junior Member

    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    22
    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2015
    [​IMG]
     
  3. eric ernest

    eric ernest V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    1,794
    Likes Received:
    5,156
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    The price issue is somewhat subjective.

    If the guitar has a figured center seam top, how would the casual observer know if it started out as a Goldtop or a Burst? Assuming it was stripped correctly. The serial number is clearly out of the range for a Burst, but that was a known going in. The explanation given by Detlef was that when the guitar was refinished, and the wrong (or made up) number was applied. I'm inclined to think the number is indeed correct. 8 1534. (UPDATE 8/15/2018: The serial number was cross referenced with the original Gibson Ledgers and the number is incorrect.)

    When I spoke with Detlef about this issue last October he said he has photos of the guitar going back to the 70's and it has a sunburst finish.

    But I have some going back to '76...and it was clearly a refinished sunburst then. The Burst pattern was just plain silly. Does Detlef think that finish was original? Don't know. If he produces a photo of the instrument with it's "alleged" original sunburst finish, I will humbly apologize....but he made it clear he cannot offer them to me....for reasons unknown....Hummmmm.

    It's my impression that several of theses issues were found out in a close time proximity....two in one day.

    I personally like Detlef a lot....and he does strive to offer detailed photos of his instruments. (though now....he may not like me for my often uncompromising candor) But there have been MANY people who have bought instruments from Guitar Point that have not been accurately presented. (Richard Henry among them.) That just shouldn't be ignored.

    That will come in time as I now own it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
    joff, Red Rocket, lpcustom69 and 12 others like this.
  4. RAG7890

    RAG7890 Premium Member

    Messages:
    14,450
    Likes Received:
    22,880
    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2010
    Ouch again, Richard will not be a happy camper.

    :cheers2:
     
  5. eric ernest

    eric ernest V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    1,794
    Likes Received:
    5,156
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Oh, and the guitar has been painted six times.

    It just had another refin., and unfortunately, the high profile "expert" re-finisher didn't paint the guitar as he was instructed to in writing.

    Anybody for seven? :eek:

    Here's the guitar in the 1970's. Anybody have a problem with that sunburst pattern? :naughty:

    Alex_conti.jpg
     
    mrfett, RAG7890 and CRobbins like this.
  6. eric ernest

    eric ernest V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    1,794
    Likes Received:
    5,156
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    I believe this is from 1975. I also believe they left the back dark walnut and only re-shot the top. The back is extremely dark in all of the photos I have seen.

    1975_Rudolph_1S.jpg
     
    mrfett, RAG7890 and CRobbins like this.
  7. CRobbins

    CRobbins Premium Member

    Messages:
    7,640
    Likes Received:
    10,859
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2012
    Seven is a sacred number.
     
    RAG7890 and eric ernest like this.
  8. eric ernest

    eric ernest V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    1,794
    Likes Received:
    5,156
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Well...it's currently at six....which may be the opposite. :iough:
     
  9. chasenblues

    chasenblues Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,160
    Likes Received:
    31,797
    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2007
    I'm kinda confused..
    Its been painted 6 times, Is that including the original factory finish of which there is some dispute to what that color actually was/is?
     
  10. pinefd

    pinefd V.I.P. Member Premium Member V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    9,206
    Likes Received:
    13,628
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2007
    I do too, Eric, so this information is a bit disturbing to me. Fortunately, I've never bought anything from him, so I've never experienced any of these problems first hand.

    Wow, nice rim burst! Very authentic looking! :eek:

    Ok, and I'll bite...how do you know it's been painted six times?!? Are there that many different layers of paint, or have you been able to determine that by tracing its history?

    Can't wait to see this done, BTW! Any chance you'll be going to the Nashville show in March...and any chance you'll have this with you then? This will be the first Nashville show I will have gone to; not that I'm expecting much, but it will be a good opportunity/excuse to get together with some of my guitar buddies.


    Frank
     
    RAG7890 and RevWillie like this.
  11. eric ernest

    eric ernest V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    1,794
    Likes Received:
    5,156
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    No layers.

    1. Original Goldtop?
    2. Early 70's sunburst refin. Stupid burst pattern.
    3. Late 70's Gibson factory (clown) sunburst refin around 1980 when it was renecked by the Kalamazoo factory with an NOS neck. (Work order done through Gruhn's.)
    4. Early 2000's sunburst done by Mathias Schindehütte.
    5. 2015 Mathias Schindehütte again at Gregory's request. (Very murky finish.)
    6. 2017 a sunburst Historic Makeover refin. (Not painted as requested on work order. Walnut pore filler! WTF?)

    If I go to Nashville, I'll bring it.

    (Edited with updates. -eric)
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  12. scovell001

    scovell001 Senior Member

    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    100
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2015
    3 quick questions:

    1) does it still have the original pafs in it ?
    2)how does it play?
    3) do you think you’ll go back to the original GT colour (I probably would)

    Amazing story btw
     
  13. pinefd

    pinefd V.I.P. Member Premium Member V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    9,206
    Likes Received:
    13,628
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2007
    Wow!

    And what's this "If" stuff?!? Heck, Nashville is practically in your back yard, isn't it? (what's it, a 7+/- hour drive for you guys?) Hope to see you there!


    Frank
     
  14. eric ernest

    eric ernest V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    1,794
    Likes Received:
    5,156
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    :naughty: I am a very busy man these days......
     
    Lousyatit and Jumping@shadows like this.
  15. Jumping@shadows

    Jumping@shadows V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    2,108
    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2012
    With the reneck, multiple refins, changed/missing plastics and other parts etc the price would have been very reasonable, and after all that whether it started as a Goldtop or a Burst is less critical imo, but with so many ‘hands on’ luthiers and ‘experts’ in the chain it should have been identified correctly, and certainly sold as such.
     
  16. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood Senior Member

    Messages:
    746
    Likes Received:
    574
    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2010
    I love the investigative/forensic work that goes into documenting these old guitars.
    Thanks for sharing the details!
     
  17. sws1

    sws1 V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    741
    Likes Received:
    802
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Best to keep your expectations low with this show Frank. It's certainly not Arlington.

    Having said that, I'm still on the fence about coming down for that one. Nashville is always fun.
     
    RevWillie and pinefd like this.
  18. Jimmi

    Jimmi Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,055
    Likes Received:
    5,651
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2013
    Look me up if you all go. I should be there (live in Nashville).

    As far as GP goes, clearly not an original Burst though a real 58 LP it was not represented for what it was. Therefore, they are not a shop that can be trusted completely (but honestly, there are't many).
     
    RevWillie likes this.
  19. pinefd

    pinefd V.I.P. Member Premium Member V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    9,206
    Likes Received:
    13,628
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2007
    I was actually planning on connecting with you, Jimmi. I'll be in touch when we get a little closer to the date...would love to meet up with you!


    Frank
     
    Jimmi and Jumping@shadows like this.
  20. Jimmi

    Jimmi Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,055
    Likes Received:
    5,651
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2013
    Look forward to it. It is a nice show with a good chance to see some well known players. We can hit some of the other local places.
     

Share This Page