Best FRFR powered speakers Alto Tx , Alto TS212 or EV ZLX 12p

Discussion in 'Amp Modeling' started by skysc, Jul 26, 2017.

  1. skysc

    skysc Senior Member

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    I have a best buy gift card and i'm thinking of buying a FRFR powered speaker to go with modelers , ( line 6 pod , NI guitar rig , amplitube etc. and eventually Axe fx or kemper )

    The powered speakers available on best buy marketplace ( canada ) and in my price range are

    Alto TX12

    ALto TS 212

    Electro-voice ZLX 12p

    Behringer eurolive 212 ..
    i


    anyone have experience with any of those for Guitar purpose . Which sound better . I will be using a POD HD on it
     
  2. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

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    I use the ZLX12P. I love it. I also know a few guys here locally that use the Alto and are perfectly happy. Me, I tried the Alto (among several others) during my search, and I preferred the overall sound and power of the EV. I was able to get the sound I waned to hear.

    I would avoid the Behringer. With either the Alto or the EV you are getting a speaker that is used by a lot of people "in the field".
     
  3. skysc

    skysc Senior Member

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    MMd: thx for the reply .. theres a 40 $ difference betweeen the alto and EV at the store . I will probably go with the electro voice

    is it true that they are bass heavy ... like too much low end .. ive read a couple of review that said they are .

    What modeler or gear do you use and what style . Im more oriented toward hard rock /metal ( heavy distortion )

    Thx
     
  4. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

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    Nah, never noticed any bass heaviness. I use a Helix rack and I play hard rock/classic metal. I post videos often to help out. Here's a couple with the Helix/EV one live, one rehearsal - the camera is picking up the sound in the room...



     
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  5. KenG

    KenG Senior Member

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    Check the crossover frequencies to compare. The higher the better generally speaking as it means more of your guitars frequencies are going through the low end driver. Second check the bi-amp power the low end shold have mree watts assigned to it than the hi Freq Driver. (2 - 3x more) If the power for both is the same the HF Driver will be out of balance.
     
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  6. Sournote

    Sournote Senior Member

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    Hey Ken,

    Can you explain why a higher cross over is better or point me to some resources so I can understand that spec?

    I've been thinking I'd pick up a Alto 10 for my personal monitor, but my local Mom and Pop shop carry Peavey and I noticed they have a new model 10" Powered speaker PVXp10. The specs say the crossover is at 3.1 kHz. Its only 400 watts compared to the Alto or EV but I remembered your comment in a another thread about higher crossover being better and wondered if these might be a cool option.
     
  7. KenG

    KenG Senior Member

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    The specs I saw for that model on Sweetwater said 120-150Hz! Couldn't find the specs on the Peavey site to verify.
    A caveat on specs, unless there's a dB variance (+/-) stated with the response they have to be taken with a grain of salt.
    The range is defined as the lowest to highest frequency the unit can respond to but the variance describes how flat the response is. +/- 3dB across the entire range would be decently flat, +/-10dB would not be.
    I have seen specs where the stated a range of frequencies that fell into the +/-3dB range then also stated the frequencies above and below that range that went a 10dB variance. This helps describe the roll-off at either end of the useable spectrum.

    an example is the Alto TS210
    http://www.avshop.ca/sound-amp-pa-a...ers/alto-ts210-1100w-10in-powered-loudspeaker

    You can see they are decently flat (+/- 3dB) from 54Hz to 20KHz and quickly roll off (+/-10dB) from 54Hz down to 48 Hz and from 20kHz up to 22kHz.
    Their crossover freq is 2.5Khz and the LF Drvier gets considerably more power assigned to it than the HF Driver

    If you moved to a TS212 the crossover frequency would be lower (2khz) due to the size of the speaker (larger speakers have problems producing higher frequencies).

    So The TS210 would have all the freqs below 2.5Khz coming from the 10 inch driver but in the TS212 ony the freqs below 2kHz would be coming from it. So all the rest of the frequenices present have to be coming from the HF driver.
    To your ears the TS212 might have alittle more low end but sound more shrill as more of the content is coming from the high freq driver.
    Does that help?
     
  8. skysc

    skysc Senior Member

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    KenG : i got a few parts of what your mentionning .

    When we talk about FRFR speakers .. does 10 inch make a big difference from the 12 .

    In guitar speaker ... ive always find that 8 inch and 10 inch were nowhere close to a 12 inch . 8 inch make the amp sound thin Is it the same ¨way¨for FRFR ??

    I havent made my choice yet but the electro voice zlx 12p seem to be high on my choice right now .
     
  9. Sournote

    Sournote Senior Member

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    So if I'm understanding you, the spec's and these Peavey's look good on paper and "someone" should check them out?

    Frequency Range, 1 Meter On-Axis, Swept-Sine In ½ Space Environment: 52 Hz to 20 kHz
    Frequency Response, 1 Meter On-Axis, Swept-Sine In Anechoic Environment: 65 Hz to 20 kHz (+/- 3 dB))
    Usable Low Frequency Limit (-10 Db Point Anechoic): 54 Hz Nominal Sensitivity (1w @1m, Swept Sine Input In Anechoic Environment): 96 dB (average)
    Maximum Sound Pressure Level (1 Meter): 122 dB SPL peak with music Radiation Angle Measured At -6 Db Point Of Polar Response: Nominal: 100 degrees horizontal X 60 degrees vertical (Axis of the vertical main polar lobe is angled down 10 degrees, resulting in the angular pattern with respect to straight ahead being +20, -40 degrees)
    Transducer Complement: Heavy-duty 10" woofer with 2-3/8" voice coil & 50 oz. magnet, RX™10N 1" titanium diaphragm dynamic compression driver with Neo magnet
    Box Tuning Frequency: 75 Hz Electroacoustic
    Crossover Frequency: 3,100 Hz
    Crossover Type: Internal Electronic two-way crossover with driver EQ, level matching, bass boost and subsonic filtering.
    Crossover Slopes: 24 dB/octave (4th order) low pass, 24dB/octave (fourth order) high pass, both with staggered poles and driver EQ.
     
  10. KenG

    KenG Senior Member

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    FRFR is different than standard guitar speakers. The FRFR concerns are; a balance between what comes from the LF Driver versus the HF Driver, and the speaker in a guitar amp would tend to have a more wide range than one designed for FRFR. So 12 inch guitar speakers (which can work up to >5kHz) are not 12 inch FRFR speakers which would roll off before that),
    There's some missing info on the EV specs but if you look the LF Driver is described as a "woofer" which means it likes to work with lower frequencies generally (also described similarly in the Alto Specs) .I can't even see a Xover freq for that speaker on EVs' specs but the general rule of thumb is the larger the woofer diameter the hrader it is to move fast enough to produce higher frequencies.
    So I would not use guitar speaker ideology to assess FRFR. The lowest fundamental freq on a guitar with standard A440 tuning is approx 80hz. all other frequencies generated on a note will be higher than that.

    As to which actually sounds better, I can't say personally and my taste can differ from yours.
     
  11. KenG

    KenG Senior Member

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    I finally found PEavey's specs that you were referring to (had to look under support, user manuals but no decent link on the actual product page?). They sound good on paper at least. Personally I've never been a Peavey speaker fan, be it their guitar speakers including the Black Widow or their sound re-inforcement stuff which was on par with Yorkville Sounds stuff IMO. In the end all you can do is try them and see if you like them. How does there pricing compare to the EVS and Altos?
     
  12. Sournote

    Sournote Senior Member

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    Roughly the same ball park.

    And I share some of your opinions on Peavey, though I know very little about their sound reinforcement stuff. I thought they put out some pretty decent mixers but that's just from seeing a few local bands using them back in the day.

    I'll most likely stick with herd and go with an Alto. If my local GC had the PVs I might be tempted to bring one home to wring out, the the local Mom and Pop that has them, doesn't have a similar return policy to GC.
     
  13. mdubya

    mdubya Senior Member

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    I wish I had bought the Alto TS212 instead of the QSC K8. I am getting along OK with the QSC now, but it cost too much for something I don't like that much. :(
     
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  14. Rocco Crocco

    Rocco Crocco Senior Member

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    The Peavey you guys (sournote and Ken) are talking about... looks like it only has one input. If you need an FRFR for a live band situation, you might want to get one that has two inputs. I typically run my Helix into one channel of my Alto, and a monitor mix of the whole band into the other. That way, I can control how much of "me" I hear by adjusting the gain knobs accordingly.
     
  15. KenG

    KenG Senior Member

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    For myself I'm thinking when the time comes it'll be a 10 inch as reports are the 12s are more boomy. I'm thinking Alto because I won't be gigging, they are pretty affordable, and when I tire of using my Studio Monitors and want be away from the PC they won't be too much for home use.
     
  16. Sournote

    Sournote Senior Member

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    Our mixer has multiple monitor outs so I can do that through the mixer using only one input, but good point about the added flexibility.
     
  17. drew365

    drew365 Senior Member

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    I know little about the specs for different speakers. I just thought that I would throw this 2c worth of experience in. I have a DXR12 that is working great for me. But it's not magical and can't make everything that I put into it sound great. I rarely have a problem with boominess. I would say that 85% of the time that I'm unhappy with my sound, it's because of shrillness. Once in a while a amp model/cab/mic choice will be too bassy, but it's not as big of a problem as thin ice picky highs. Trying to maintain that fat, non shrill rock tone that still cuts through is a constant quest. Personally, I would be leery of moving to a 10" FRFR, and I doubt I ever will. But that's just my experience so far.
    I'm actually hunting for that elusive FRFR, that gives a taste of the warmth and hair of a guitar cab. So far I've zeroed in on the Xitone MBritt Open Back and the Mission Io. After I pay for this last guitar purchase, one of these will probably find a home at my place.
     
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  18. KenG

    KenG Senior Member

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    That shrillness is likely due to a lower crossover frequency required by tbe 12 inch speaker.
     
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  19. mdubya

    mdubya Senior Member

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    The Xitone does away with the tweeter altogether, I believe.

    I think we will be better served as more monitor/speaker setups are designed specifically for amp modeling.

    I am tired of the excuses made for why models that sound great through headphones or direct recordings do not sound so great through monitors. People can give a thousand reasons why, but they are still just apologetic excuses. We need modeling specific monitors/speakers.

    I haven't tried the Xitone (yet), but I do believe it is a step in the right direction if not the answer.
     
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  20. KenG

    KenG Senior Member

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    No single speaker element can perform with a flat response, not even for the smaller band used for guitar. This is true of guitar speakers too. So using guitar cabs or similar type speakers are going to add colouration to the modelling setup. FRFR seeks to prevent this by combining multiple speaker elements into a package that will be as close to flat response as possible. I think there are things in FRFR to consider, ....... where in the band does one component stop producing frequencies as the other takes over, and while we want flat response, we really don't need the entire band 20-20kHz to faithfully reproduce guitar content, that range just comes as a result of the design.
    Some folks use Global EQ or filters to roll off the highs above the usefull range and the lows below as well so that the response is still, but the range is limited. Depending on the amplifire and hf driver it may actually produce hiss or noise in the high band area where there's no music content. Or the fact that the top end of the guitar signal doesn't roll off like a guitar speaker may make it seem unnatural to some folks as well. Especially to folks who primarily listen to their own amps and don't listen to recorded music or their amp miked up to something. This too could be address with a low pass filter set to the top end and choosing the right rolloff /slope.
     

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