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Discussion in 'Epiphone Les Pauls' started by Koebiguitar, Jul 30, 2017.
20% loss of 2000€/$ = 400€/$
40% loss of 500€/$ = 200€/$
Mostly to pay for the failure of King Henry.....
It's an alarming number considering the price. At $2500 you should get a perfect guitar. Every time.
As a percentage that's double...
The fact is, whether the quality of the QC at Gibson is deemed good or bad, or people chose not to like Gibson due to Henry, or their prices are too high against what you get for your money vs Epiphone or what ever a persons opinion about the brand is..Gibson on the head stock, rightly or wrongly, is going to hold more prestige and value regardless.
A Gibson is a Gibson is a Gibson....
and I'll refer to my previous post in this thread..there IS a difference in feel and quality..just like a Squier v a USA Fender..just like a PRS SE v a PRS USA...just like a Japanese Ibanez v Korean...and so there should be for the $.
And before anyone jumps..yes I own Gibson, Epiphone, Squier, USA Fender and both types of Ibanez.
It's all opinion at the end of the day..no one is right..no one is wrong (Except Henry )
You cannot rationally downplay the number of blatant quality control problems taking place on $3000 Gibsons like it's somehow okay. It genuinely is alarming and it has every right to be called out as such.
I'd love to hear your explanation for why the customer shouldn't expect total perfection every time at that price.
Unfortunately the fanboys want to make such chronic QC problems totally normalized. And sadly they seem to be quite successful at doing that in their own circles.
Am I a Gibson fanboy, or are you a Gibson basher? Or an Epi fanboy? Your call. Whatever man, you win.
I am a Moderator, and my Job here is to keep cork-sniffing trolls and sh!t-stirrers out......
How does it feel to know that you're part of the problem?
Perhaps if you weren't so uncritically accepting of such shitty quality and you stop enabling it by purchasing their guitars, then maybe Gibson will get the kick up the arse they need and do something about their quality control problems in order to bring their fanboys back.
Every 'non-perfect' Gibson (or any other brand) - not sent back
is another 'perfect made' Gibson (or any other brand) in their books
BOOOO! Just kidding! I love strats and teles. As long as they have a beefy neck. Legendary guitars right along with Les Paul's.
Maybe that's why they love online retailers so much. Because they know returning a guitar to an online retailer is more of a hassle than taking it back to a brick and mortar store.
It's extremely rare that a crappy Gibson it's gonna be sent to the factory. Especially for the non USA market. White flies I'd say. The guitar stores are ordering and paying those guitars in advance, and for the most typical blemish (90% of the rants you see here) they are just B-stock bouncing back in the market. Gibson doesn't even know (and doesn't care) what happen after the distribution. This is one of the motives the brand is disappearing from the street local stores, other than for the very bad care Gibson has with small retailers. It's really that way, take it or leave it.
I bought my first Epi a couple of years ago. It's a 2015 Gold Top LP with Zebra pups. It was a fluke really, I had a Fender Mex Strat and a Fender acoustic, then one morning I had stumbled upon an ad on facebook that Musician's Friend was having a SDOD and selling them for $299, free shipping, no tax. Helluva deal, so I jumped on it. I wanted a Les Paul, but $2K for a Gibson was out of my reach at the time (disposable cash and my inexperience both factored in). I hesitated a bit before jumping on it, mostly due to the stigma that Epis drag around with them: horrible Chinese POS and stuff like that.
Well then, a few days later, I found and joined this forum and like I do, dove in, reading all I could about this Epi that hadn't even arrived yet. Found most loved them and lots hated them, as divisive a subject as current politics. When I received it, it was/is incredible. Had to set it up to my liking, but that was all it needed and I don't know of any guitar that I would not tweak to my liking, so that is negligible. Frankly, it is mind numbing to receive such a great quality guitar, mail order, for $299. I had been reading about 50s wiring mods and "tone monster" caps and pots and wanted to try them, but not on my newly acquired prize! So, I went to craigslist and found a cheap Epi SG that was mint for $200 and bought it. Ordered some pots and caps then found a set of ProBuckers that were takeoffs from a new Epi and got those for $40. Installed, rewired, loved it AND I had a new to me Epi SG for under $300 total!
Of course, the new toys made me play more and my playing has benefited from their presence in my rotation ever since. But, damn...I still haven't tried a Gibson and you know, they are going to be sooo much better. Well, that didn't last long. About three or four months ago, I picked up a used Gibson SG for a ridiculous price, my very first Gibby! Aside from the different headstock and the different neck heel and more pronounced beveling on the Gibby, they both play and sound the same. No tonal differences whatsoever. So, you have to ask, WTF? How could this be? What with Epis being Chinese POS and Gibsons being singularly hand-crafted by Christ and all. This is the power of stigma. Even though I personally know there is no difference, I sold the Epi and kept the Gibson. Why? Because it's a Gibson and the other one ain't. That is power my friends.
The voyage doesn't end there though. About two months ago, I saw a 2016 Firebird (my dream guitar) marked down to $967 at my favorite online retailer. It was an open box return in mint condition. Jumped on it. Sucked. Buzzed up down and sideways. Only way to stop the buzz was with a ridiculously high setup (think slide only, no fretting possible). I was going to get a refund when I noticed that they had 2017s marked way down as mint open boxes, $1,123 (had to be a mistake, they have raised the open box prices considerably for mints since then). That's what the blems/damaged ones go for, the price new is $1,499. $375 off in mint condition? Plus a hard shell case for only another $156? Jumped on it, exchange for mine plus the difference in price. Same issues, exchanged it for another. More issues and gouges in the body. At this point, I called to complain and they sent me a BRAND NEW one for my trouble. That is customer service at it's finest. I love Musician's Friend and will always buy from them from now on. Sadly, I received it, brand new, it had only been at the MU shipping area for a day or so after checking the warranty card date so, I know I was the only person to touch it since it left the factory and guess what? Micro scratches in the finish. A sitar sound on the B string at the 2nd, 3rd and 4th fret. WTF? Where is the "quality"?
I decided to keep it. Musician's Friend did all they could to make me happy and as far as they are concerned, I will sing their praises forever. Plus, it is still $375 off original price, on a brand new Gibby (that's 25% off). My issue is that Gibson quality sucks. At least, I can verify it has totally sucked in 2016 and 2017 models of Firebirds. No way in hell a guitar that cost over $1K should leave an American factory with more problems and finish issues than a $300 Epi shipped all the way from China. That is ridiculous and a direct reflection on Gibson management. I've been in manufacturing a very long time. I can tell you that artisans DO NOT allow crap like this to ever get to the QC area, much less out the door. This can only happen if the artisan base is demoralized by poor management practices and/or, if the base is gone due to purging the higher wage employees in favor of low cost new hires. Knowing this, there is no point in sending it back to Gibson. I know I will get similar quality back so, I will have to fix it myself. I don't mind that since I got a helluva deal, but damn people, Gibson USA is flat on it's ass. Don't look for their quality to improve anytime soon. It takes years to rebuild an artisan base and in the face of corporate cost-cutting, that is not likely to happen.
I should send it back, but I can't. I've always loved Firebirds and I love this one, I truly do and after all, it is a Gibson. That is brand power unimaginable. I expect that Gibson is hurting financially at this point. It is mid year and the sales of new Gibsons are being discounted at around 10% right now. I suspect there will be some end of year blowouts due to their ridiculous quality issues so, if you are looking for a new one, wait till near end of year or, first quarter 2018 when they fire sale all that unsold stock. In the mean time, you have a better chance at acceptable quality Gibbys on the used market.
As stated before it's all a matter of personal experience and one's own thoughts about quality vs $.
I wouldn't say that Gibson is flat on it's ass. They still produce quality instruments and many of the 2017's are superb in finish and play-ability.
Yes, I'm sure there are a few dogs that slip through but that can be said for any manufacturer. Yes I've played Gibsons that were not set up great and had flaws, same be said with Epiphone and others.
I recently played a couple of the 2017 Tributes. Gold Top. Flawless and set up was perfect out of the box. Combined with the new soft case for $1200CN, that is a great guitar.
Over the past few years Gibsons have started to be decreased in price around this time of year. Much like the Auto industry Gibson now release the next year range early. The 2018's will be released in September, and probably in stores by October.
This exactly! I see that argument all the time and never understand it. Bottom line is that those who claim that the Gibson will hold it's value better than the Epi must care more about the percentage recovered than the actual dollars they are out. That, even though bottom line they are out much more in real dollars.
For me, if I have to lose dollars I would much rather lose $200 rather than $400 or more, regardless of the percentage.
That is exactly how mathematics work in the real life
You can't buy anything with percentage
Interesting ! I owned the epi zw bullseye..and later on bought me the gibson. Eh..in my experience the epi wasnt anywhere near the gibson. The main reason being the awful fretwork that actually made it so hard to play decently..in other words,it held me back. And that goes for just about every epiphone guitar i have played for the last 25 odd years. Poor fretwork. Really poor. Other brands have much better fretwork in the same price range. Shame really. And as always..the toggle switch .
There is a price difference of $2,000 between the Gibson and the Epi. Does it surprise you that one may be better?
I have the Epi Rosso Corsa, and it is a very good sounding and feeling guitar IMHO. Very good.
Have I played the Gibson version? No, but I have owned 3 Gibson Les Paul Standards, 1 Classic, and 1 Studio. I can say that this Epi is on par with all of them.
Perhaps the one you tried may have needed a good setup? I know mine is a lot better after I did a thorough setup than it was right out of the box, but I will say the same for all of my Gibsons.
The necks on the two versions are nothing like the same in shape and in finish. The two I tried were set up just fine, but 100% had a different feel and play ability to the Gibson. Not saying the Epiphone is a bad guitar (I have not said that at all in any of my posts), but IMO the quality between the two is substantially different. and yes it should be for the $$$ difference.
I do find the neck on the Epi to be a bit on the chunky side, but I'm ok with that. I assume the Gibson is slimmer.
I think the Epi is very nice, but I would hope (and expect) for the price difference that the Gibson should be higher quality. I'm not delusional. I agree with you that while both Gibsons and Epi's are good, there is a difference.
As I said, I've owned Gibsons, and Epis. The Gibsons were a cut above (the Rosso Corsa is also a cut above the other Epi's I've owned) Just like I have 3 Squiers, and two American Fenders. The squiers are great guitars, and are work horses, but the Fenders really are just better. They should be for the $$$.