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Discussion in 'Amp Modeling' started by pnuggett, Mar 9, 2017.
You are the one that brought it up !!
Those differences are so difficult to realize at low volume. Sustain no real difference. Sag? I dunno. I'll plug in tomorrow and check if I feel anything. Compression not really a difference. I'll report back.
To address your other points on my psychoanalysis: I can't dispute your findings. Once I've been burned, I tend to stay away. Take Windows for example. I've bought some dogs of OS's from them. I use apple now. Windows would have to blow me before I used it again, and I imagine it works well these days. Same with android phones. You can keep em. The problems I had were inexcusable.
Yes I come here to the modeling forum. I don't dislike modelers. I also don't dis gear because somewhere, someone is making a 100 dollar peavey bandit sound awesome. It's ultimately not the gear, it's the player. I've owned and still own modeling solutions and will purchase another soon. I just hear distinct differences between them and the amps I love.
My exact experience with the kemper was 2 hours studio time in a session. I dug it. I wasn't moving knobs but it sounded good. It was a Latin pop recording. Pinnacle of tone wasn't so important. I also played one thru headphones at NAMM. I was underwhelmed with that as well as the product reps demo.
Fractal I had one in the home studio a few hours. It was the original one. The cleans and effects sounded great. The other stuff was just ok. I just saw Larry Mitchell KILL IT with a Fractal AX8. You're talking about a player who doesn't miss. I also played a friends fractal who insisted I try the BE100 model. A BE100 it wasn't.
I really enjoyed the helix demo at NAMM and the rep did a great job demoing the unit. They're definitely getting better. I didn't think the helix sounded as good as the Steve Stevens with pedals in American Angel. Both guitarists are good friends of mine, great players and I loaned one my amp for the set. The Helix did not sound bad.
I get it now. This isn't just a forum about modelers it is a forum promoting modelers and nothing but praise is allowed.
Just think of little Anthony and there will be no problems.
You ever been in a Chevy foum and see a Ford guy in there? How about a Nikon forum where a Canon guys comes in... Oh wait. Here is a better one. How about Liberal vs Conservative?
Oh my friend you are a rocket scientist with your assumptions. The world... and this forum... Needs more of you.. you are Brilliant.
Basically your post is for trouble making.. Correct?
Well if the forum is to be something more than a "Safe Space" for the modeling crowd, other opinions should be allowed to be expressed and it should be acknowledged that expressing contrary opinions, even in the modeling forum, are not de facto evidence of trolling.
Music at its best is art, at a lower level perhaps a craft. No one tool will ever be right for every artist or even every craftsman and its a wasted effort to attempt to convert another artist/craftsman to use our preferred tool.
You are 1000% right and no one ever said that there was one tool for all. Well no one but me perhaps.
Honestly. The problem is not that there are differing opinions. Not at all. The problem is where those opinions come from and what facts were used to base that opinion. This has been said over and over and over again to the point where we have selective posting by some.
You have an opinion about X? why do you feel that way? What is the background that formed that opinion? Thats all we ever say here. If you watch, you will notice all these counter modeling opinions are formed by guys that have never played the devices.
If you were looking for an opinion like MANY lurkers that come here. Would you want that opinion from someone that has no experience with what you want info on?
I would assume that we are all pretty smart people here. Lets cut the nonsense out because you know exactly what I am taking about.
If you are a heavy metal player and you want an opinion of what tool would work for you. Look at the pros. Did you know Metallica used Fractal for all their concerts? I think that's a pretty good opinion to look at. Same goes for hundreds and hundreds of acts today.
If you think I am a poster child for Fractal you couldn't be more wrong. Look at my past history and see all the Tube Amps I have had. They just don't work for 90% of the players that visit this site. If a new company came out with a better product, you would see my AXE for sale fasted then you can imagine.
Would you believe my opinions if I never played a tube amp? Me either.. So why should we take seriously anyone that has never had any experience with high end modelers?
Bottom line is this. People that express opinions in this room with no experience should just be ignored. We have already given too much to to those that have no business giving opinions.
It's a good thing you said that. It's a real good thing.
Many times on the modeler section, it feels like if you are not a penultimate fan girl/boy, you are drummed off the threads. I had an Axe and just sold it. Not a sound issue...just option overkill for me. When I stated that, it felt like that was an unwelcomed opinion. Having said that I did compare the Axe to a '76 caddy with a lot of chrome and options I do not want. Probably a little too much emotional content in that comparison...my bad.
I have seen many regular modeler contributors go on the tube side and recommend modelers and profilers. NBD as far as I am concerned. To have a robust discussion we need opinions. There a many, many tube amps that do nothing for me. There are a few modelers that I think are work in progress on sound or feel or other issues. It is what it is. I like hearing different opinions. It helps me decide if I wanna get off my backside to try something.
Differing opinions are fine.
But, a common, unwritten, theme that seems to be coming from some in this thread (and past threads), is that if one states a 'differing opinion' here, that NOONE is allowed to rebut that opinion regardless of civility of the rebuttal, even if the 'differing opinion' is said purely to 'stir the pot'.
I don't understand why it is wrong to attempt to discuss or debate a statement that says "I think modelers are deficient in x", or "Mis-informed trope #3". They are allowed to state said opinion, but NOONE is allowed to respond to it? How is that right?.
If you go back on this thread, with an objective eye, you will see this sequence of events.
1. An OP with an interesting round table vid.
2. OP poster follows up with a post that restates a common pejorative trope used against modelers. To whit: "They don't, however, produce the same, for a lack of a better term, organic impact of a real amp.
Fire away. "
3. Now, considering this is a phrase akin to saying Modelers are inferior, the responses are very tame to this. In fact they simply ask for clarification on this opinion.
4. He never really does clarify his 'point', but some of us finally interpret it (and giving the benefit of the doubt to him) that it was a badly worded interpretation of something said in the vid.
5. People, politely point out how the participants in the vid, are focused on stating how people when comparing old tech amps to modelers WHEN using a full FRFR rig, should compare apples to apples, which means comparing a mic'ed amp to the modeler's digital version of that. They also politely point out that that isn't the ONLY way the modeler can be used, and that it can be used as an 'amp in the room', and that the vid participants don't cover that aspect.
6. The OP NEVER responds to the above, not once. He never discusses those posts or points, never ever adds anything else to fortify his statement in #2. He does attack particular posts as 'against him', such as this, and this,
7. A few others who rarely contribute in this sub forum, and when they do almost always in a thread like this, joined in with posts basically saying we are not entitled to have opinions on people's differing opinions. That is with one NOTABLE exception, Joeydego who decided it was time to reiterate his opinion that modelers are inferior to tube amps. Which, was noted by many here, he is entitled to. He also at least debated back and forward said opinions.
NOW, if you go back and objectively look at those sequences, then you would have to have some amount of questions in your mind as to the OP's motives. To summarize, he posts a pejorative trope about modelers, even says he expected comments to refute it, then never posts any further discussion on the main topic, the rebuttals or anything similar, just attacks the sub forum, individual posts as being 'mean' and similar. Hmm, I wonder why that would be thought as possible trolling?
Joeydego posted opinions many of us didn't agree with, and was never called a troll. Why? Because he then discussed his statements, back and forth, gave reasons for his opinions, clarified etc. BIG DIFFERENCE.
Yeah, what a terrible place to visit. Horrible people here unwilling to help anyone. Narrow minded assho#s if you ask me. Its amazing this stupid place still gets visitors. If I had to endure treatment like that I would not stand for it. Unbelievable...
Yet, I guess like a horrible car crash, some just love the horror I guess.
Sadly FrankV it is what you make it, since you post about 1/3 of all comments in these threads.
Dude, you are so smart it's scary. The problem is this incredible post you wrote makes so many great points it will be completely ignored. Shame..
And imagine that. I'm still very successful at my job.. Go figure.
You think I'm such a bad person. PM me your phone number and we can discuss like men.. assuming you are actually a man.
I'll also add I don't appreciate snide insults dude. So check that at the main menu.
First, The Squawk Box is not the 'tube side'. It is for the "Discussion of new, used and vintage guitar amplifiers." Modelers and profilers are guitar amplifiers, as are SS non modelers. This sub forum was created because, many times when a Modeler centric thread was created it started getting person after person just posting things like "Don't waste your time on modelers", "Modelers suck" and similar, and then devolved into uselessness as a thread. Ergo this forum for specifically Modeler discussion.
And yep, when someone posts "What amp should I get", I will post different modeler or profiler options. I also, personally, occasionally suggest a non modeler/profiler when it doesn't seem a good fit for the person. If someone posts how they need something that gets great tone at low volumes only, or similar needs that modelers excel at, you bet I'll recommend a modeler/profiler over another ill-fitting for their needs tube amp.
Same token, sometimes a tube amp is a better fit for tham and I recco one of those (as I have had quite a few tube amps before). Granted that isn't that often Heck, I wonder if most realize that Frank has had more tube amp experience with different amps than any usual 3 or 5 people combined.
You would think that some of the information I freely post would be of value. However. When you have so many exercising their intellectually dishonest rights... You must take the good with the bad I suppose.
I love using those words. It makes some so angry. But truth is helpful to them.
No one ever answers the open question. That is asked over and over. That's selective posting at its best. Here is the question that was asked many different ways
Would you seek out an opinion from someone that had no experience in what you needed info on?
Frank, I do indeed value your opinion because you have had such a wealth of experience in different amplification methods. I also value your opinion so much that I ask you, an avowed modeler/profiler devotee (even preacher ) on old tube amps like the Studio 15. After some ribbing (on the phone) you give me straight forward and honest assessments of whatever I ask (in this case, the Studio 15 vs my JCM 1 and Friedman).
In the spirit of a round table discussion, I would like to risk interjecting an observation about tube amps: they are clearly changing. They are incorporating some of the recording direct recording features in an effort to compete. For example, the Laney Studio 5 has a direct in to the computer and I THINK that the new Carr Mercury V that I'm drooling over does too.
Will they succeed? Only time will tell.
OK, I'm not sure if this post is of ANY value, but hey...
Ah thank you brother. Yeah well I give all kinds of help to guys on this board when they ask. Many times doing a remote session into their computer to give them lessons on this new Modeling stuff. I have done that many times. Anyone that asks for any kind of help always gets it from me if I can provide it. Its something I enjoy to share and if I can prevent someone of getting something that just doesn't hold up, I love helping in that way.
I WISH there was a "Frankv" in this forum when I first joined. Do you know how many dollars I would have saved wasting my money of all those 60 tube amps that went through this office and perhaps 10 attenuators. All I did was make FedEx richer. If I had someone giving me the lowdown about AXE FX I would have purchased it 5 years ago.
However, that said.. There is still some resistance by some here to the experience I bring and freely share. . Insults, innuendos, arguments and that's the good stuff.
But what the heck, ya know.. bottom line is EVERONE that has taken my advice and went into modeling or profiling has written me to thank me. That is what makes me feel very good. There have been many members, some very hard core Tube guys that took what seemed to be a leap of faith and ended up selling all their tube gear.
I know, in time, some of the dudes here that berate me and insult me, I find it funny BTW cause you know me.. They wouldn't be doing that to my face, I can tell you that.. Some of those very dudes will one day move into the modeling arena and then remember Frankv and his annoying words, as they do write me an apology on how they love the stuff I and others have recommended here for years.
That's the payoff
Frank I really do value your opinion but MAN do you ever need a spoonful of sugar. You say differing opinions are welcome but then you want them to be qualified opinions.
I have a friend who likes Pepsi, I don't understand why. He's been drinking soda his whole life, but even if it was his first time, it is still a valid point for him. I like Coke, and I have tried Pepsi. I didn't like it. I don't need to drink a case of Pepsi to figure it out.
Even unqualified opinions are valid. Instead of meeting them with vitriol, reach out and explain why you feel the way you do. Maybe nobody's opinion will get changed, in fact it probably won't, but give people a chance.
I've probably been reported for speaking my mind.
At least there are others who notice the exclusiveness here.