Another Round Table Discussion

Discussion in 'Amp Modeling' started by pnuggett, Mar 9, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. pnuggett

    pnuggett Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,654
    Likes Received:
    1,266
    Joined:
    May 17, 2013
    Interesting discussion and take on the difference between a valve amp and modelling rig.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8FhyTx34wE
     
    Shai`tan likes this.
  2. Sournote

    Sournote Senior Member

    Messages:
    938
    Likes Received:
    716
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Thanks for sharing.

    Many of the comments were in perfect alignment with how my thoughts on modeling have evolved.
     
  3. Donal

    Donal ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Premium Member

    Messages:
    13,025
    Likes Received:
    11,861
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2009
    Thanks for sharing :thumb:



    WTF is the "background music" louder than those speaking :facepalm:
     
  4. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Double Platinum Supporter Premium Member V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    14,157
    Likes Received:
    12,302
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Yeah, some of us here have been saying this stuff for over a year here in MLP. This video serves to reinforce those thoughts and perhaps finally convince those that for whatever reason are not yet convinced . There is a much better way to amplify your guitar these days.
     
  5. pnuggett

    pnuggett Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,654
    Likes Received:
    1,266
    Joined:
    May 17, 2013
    Modelers are extremely good at what they do and definitely have a lot to offer. They reproduce the sound of a mic'd guitar amp. They don't, however, produce the same, for a lack of a better term, organic impact of a real amp.
    Fire away.
     
  6. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Double Platinum Supporter Premium Member V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    14,157
    Likes Received:
    12,302
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    What are you basing that opinion on?

    I wanted to also add what do you mean when you say real amp? Because the sound waves coming out of my speaker are pretty real
     
  7. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    12,627
    Likes Received:
    15,941
    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2011
    First you need to quantify and give a better description of what you mean by "organic impact of a real amp".

    Running my Kemper or Axe into my Matrix gt1000fx amp into my Xitone 2x12 FRFR CAB, and there isn't a darn thing I personally miss from my former tube amps going through my 2x12 guitar cab.
     
  8. pnuggett

    pnuggett Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,654
    Likes Received:
    1,266
    Joined:
    May 17, 2013
    A better way of describing it, than admittedly mine, can be heard around minute 17 on the video. Geez, you guys are touchy and defensive. I'm not dissing modelers.
     
  9. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,262
    Likes Received:
    2,042
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2012
    Eh, it's just pot-stirring from somebody with (most likely) no experience with high-end modeling systems. The amount of positive feedback I get from other guitarists (even a local guy with an ENGL endorsement) on my tone, coupled with their COMPLETE shock and awe that I am using a "lowly" Line 6 Helix, tells me that I made the right decision. I have even offered to have some dudes come to our rehearsal spot to try out my Helix rig. A couple guys have, and walk away converted.

    Last week I ran into a fellow who plays in a known band (no name dropping) that helped forge a style of music that introduced cookie monster vocals and gore-infested imagery upon the world. He was very excited to share that he purchased a Kemper to take on their upcoming European tour.

    The irony? A couple weeks prior he came and jammed on my Helix. We sat and talked modeling vs. tubes for about 3 hours. He jammed some more. We built him a patch (for fun) that would work in his genre of music. He was SOLD!!

    He told me he went Kemper because an acquaintance of his in a German band called "Primal Fear" had been using a Kemper globally with great results.
     
  10. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    12,627
    Likes Received:
    15,941
    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2011
    Still not sure what YOU think you hear there. Please explain.

    Cause, Chappers and the Capt, had a REAL hard time (actually couldn't) tell the difference in the 'Organic Impact' between Kemper and the actual amp it profiled, in the same room with them. (And I can parade blind test after blind test for the Kemper and Axe, etc. Just like this).

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INJ_H5PiuTE[/ame]
     
  11. KenG

    KenG Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,162
    Likes Received:
    3,244
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Shot one. There's nothing "organic" about any amplifier! The natural vibration of the string is converted to electrical energy immediately by the PUs and remains electrical until the speaker converts it back to sound waves. Feedback, touch sensitivity and amp interaction are all available on high end modelling.

    Shot two. That modelling amps don't produce the impact of a "real" amp is your opinion to which you are entitled but don't confuse your opinion with a "fact" (what ever the heck a "real amp is"). So you should've said...."In my opinion, They don't, however,.........."

    Personally I like the sound of a miced amp (which is also basically the sound of a recorded guitar), when someone struggles to replicate the sound of their favorite artist's tone it's usually from a recording anyway! If it's live and the band has decent sound the guitar amp is usually mic'ed so everyone in the audience can hear the guitar equally. If the band is big enough the guitar player may also never be that near their amp or the levels set low to keep stage volume down also impacting the effect on the player. I find folks that do a lot recording appreciate modelling more than the guy that plays in a small band at local clubs where the house PA is used for vocals only. This type is going to be focused on the sound coming out their amp, too bad half the audience will never hear what they are hearing due to the limitations of guitar cabs.
     
  12. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    12,627
    Likes Received:
    15,941
    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2011
    Those are even better 'endorsements' :D
     
  13. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,262
    Likes Received:
    2,042
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2012
    You should have seen the excitement on his face as we scrolled through amps and IRs. He was BLOWN AWAY at the number of options to tweak. We focused heavily on gain and how the IRs worked to create specific tonal shifts.

    He was excited to be able to toggle between Bogner, Engl, PRS, and Marshall amps through the same cab.

    He used his Custom Dean and one of my PRS' to listen to how the rigs responded differently to different types of guitars.

    We scrolled through various OD pedals and tweaked the amps and pedals to work together. It was a REALLY cool "teaching" session because this guy was like a sponge. He KNEW what he wanted to hear and what he NEEDED to have in regards to EQ frequencies and "feel". He loved it at low volumes AND high volumes. he was particularly impressed with the "realness" of the feedback at high volumes.

    Bear in mind this was still only using the EV-ZLX12P for a cab.

    This was the first time somebody was THIS deeply interested. I have had other guys come and try it out, but not to this level.
     
  14. Sournote

    Sournote Senior Member

    Messages:
    938
    Likes Received:
    716
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    If you WANT to recreate that amp in the back line feeling, I think Modelers can do that and it seems there are a lot of players that want to do just that.

    However, the guys they interviewed in this video didn't seem focused on that. They, like me, see advantages in going direct to PA and monitoring via stage wedge or IEM's. Going this route, it is absolutely correct to say modelers don't "feel" like having a tube amp in the backline behind you. If I wanted to duplicate that, I'd be working on patches with no cab simulation and going through my tube amp power section into one of my own cabs.

    However, that is not what I hoped to get from modeling. I'm very content using a fully simulated rig and monitoring with the same type of speaker going out front. I find it comforting when I like what I'm hearing, and knowing the same is what others hear as well. As one of the guys mentioned, once you start mic-ing the amp, only the player has the experience of reveling in the tube amp sound standing on stage in the sweet spot in front of your amp. You bandmates and audience are not hearing what you hear. They either hear your amp off axis or the mic-ed up rig. Even you won't hear that great tone if you step too far which is why I see an advantage to using a modeler going direct.

    So, I'd say modelers are capable of duplicating the tube amp experience, but they also can be used in a different way that WILL feel different, but many may find liberating/inspiring/ convenient or what ever adjective they care to apply.
     
  15. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    12,627
    Likes Received:
    15,941
    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2011
    I think we must promote you to "Preacher of The Gospel", level now.
     
  16. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,262
    Likes Received:
    2,042
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2012
    That's where I am at with modeling, as well. It has been about having a consistent sound at every venue I play - MY tone/sound. I go direct and monitor with wedges and my EV behind me (on the floor like another wedge). Some of the venues have side fills, so I get my sound from the front, back, and side just like if I was using a traditional rig.

    The difference?

    I am not worried about mic placement or stage volume. My recorded sound go be taken straight to a gig. There is no effort in trying to capture my live sound on a recording. It has made EVERY part of recording and playing live easier and better.
     
  17. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,262
    Likes Received:
    2,042
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2012
    HAHAHAHAHA, nah, I am just excited at how seriously this guy took the experience and finally had an appropriate thread in which to share!!
     
  18. Sournote

    Sournote Senior Member

    Messages:
    938
    Likes Received:
    716
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I/We are also using EV ZLX12P's for our practices and when we play parties. We are bringing on some new guys and the new band will be focused on gigging so there is much for me to learn there but so far, Using Hanmer's Parametric EQ tips I think you can dial in awesome tones to sit great in a live mix. I'm going to buy another ZLX12P as my "backline" as well.
     
  19. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    12,627
    Likes Received:
    15,941
    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2011
    All excellent points.

    You don't need to go through a Tube Amp for that 'experience' though. As in the Kemper save Chappers vid, you can go SS amp to Guitar CAB. DI profile, or profile with cab off to SS amp to Guitar CAB. Or for Axe, CAB block off to SS amp to Guitar CAB.
     
  20. Jeremiah

    Jeremiah The Worst Premium Member

    Messages:
    2,828
    Likes Received:
    2,116
    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    I know we're all enthusiastic about modelling, but if all you're going to do is "nuh uh" people to death when they offer their opinions, I don't see how any civil discourse is going to be possible.

    To your ears, the dynamics are there. To his ears, they aren't. My ears can't tell the difference, so I model. I can't tell the difference between Axe and Bias Desktop, so there is no reason for me to waste my money on a "better" solution. Yes I've got FRFR active monitors.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page