Amp modelling LIVE

Discussion in 'Amp Modeling' started by mmd, Sep 21, 2017.

  1. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

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    I recently made a tweak to my live patch. I looked at my analog board and realized I kept my noise gate at the END of the pedal chain. I looked at my Helix chain, and I have been using the "input gate". It's been working well, but over the course of the last year any time I would watch back a video clip I would notice I had a HUGE build up in the lower mids that overpowered most of the band. I mean, it certainly helped give more of an "amp in the room" vibe - but it was crushing the band's sound.

    I decided to place a gate after my pre amplifier effects (so, last in the pedal chain). I also reduced my gain on the drive pedal, the gain on the amplifier, brought the bias down from 5.2 to 4.7 and made a slight change to my dual cab block.

    For the cabs, I was running both at equal volume. Both are mic'd with a 121 ribbon at varying distances. I run a 2x12 and a 4x12. The 2x12 is the main part of the tone, with the 4x12 in there for coloring. I decided to reduce the volume of the 4x12 from 0.0 to -2.4. I also moved the mic back another inch on the 4x12 while adding in some more early reflections.

    Well, it cleared my sound up a lot....almost TOO much, lol. I lost some of the brutality, but the band sounds CRYSTAL clear. Here are two clips from the same venue with us playing the same song. The newly tweaked sound is the first video. This show had me using my PRS P22 with 57/08s (clear pickups anyway) into the Helix. The second clip has me using my PRS Paul's Guitar with Narrow 408 pickups (this guitar is a bit "bigger" sounding) into the Helix. Both videos are camera in the room sound.





    I am wondering if I should undo some of the changes. What do you guys think....did I overly thin my sound?
     
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  2. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    I'll be honest, it's hard to judge from those 2 vids. The earlier one is a lot muddier overall, the whole recording. You cut through great in the newer vid. BUT, even though the earlier video is muddy, you do stand out. My inclination is the first, older might be better. But, as said, because of that vid's quality, it is hard to be certain.
     
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  3. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

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    I am thinking the same. The older sound was much more "real". Hmmm....
     
  4. drew365

    drew365 Senior Member

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    The placement of the camera is creating too much difference in the recordings to know for sure how much is caused by your patch changes. The new recording is a much better marketing tool and sounds better overall.
    It's interesting that you bought this up. You made me realize that on my physical pedal board, which I still have together, my noise gate is last in line. All of my Helix patches have it first in line. I know that I found it worked best there at one time and I just continued to keep that placement. But my tone changes drastically from song to song, patch to patch. So my main criteria for the noise gate is to keep things quiet, and I tweak the tone other places.
     
  5. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

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    Yeah, I kind of realized that after Cyber's post, lol....my sound being so different is just something that occurred to me today when I looked back at the vids.

    Yeah, I was looking at my board and noticed I had quite an odd set-up. I have my reverb before the gate (?!). I plugged it in to the front for my Rivera's clean channel and it sounded great! I use the BOSS/Fender FRV1. It has that total 60s Reverb Unit sound - and gating it allowed the "drive" of the reverb to be a part of my distorted tone. Kind of crazy, but it totally worked.

    Yeah, I am still just using one sound. Being in an original band, that works. The only thing that changes by song is particular modulation effects and delays. My snapshots handled gain staging, channel switching, etc...
     
  6. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Double Platinum Supporter Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Where are the direct FOH recordings? I know you have the technology
     
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  7. drew365

    drew365 Senior Member

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    It doesn't look like the drums are mic'd. Probably not enough set up time to do that. Mark I record all of our performances on a video camera in the room, but I also place a small hand held Tascam audio recorder in a different spot and mix the two together when I edit. It gives me a little sonic option from what I just get from the video recorder. I've gotten really good at sync'ing the two audio tracks up together on the time line using the drum hits.
     
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  8. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

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    I have the tech, but the venues don't have the time or the smarts. We usually play on a 3-5 band bill with quick turn overs. The one venue I got a board recording from, ugh...the camera audio was better - not clearer, but just a better vibe.....

    We are always using house systems, so it's not mine to route and/or screw with. It's one of the downfalls of being in an original band....
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
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  9. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

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    The drums are mic'd. My drummer has May internal mics inside the shells. The first clip, that sounds clearer, I used my Zoom H6 for the audio. It was storming that night, so the crowd was small enough to where I could set the camera and H6 in ideal spots. With the H6, I just record to the drive AND run the line out to the GoPro, so I have live sync + an extra wav for me to manipulate if I have to. This time I didn't need to do any post production - I used a pretty aggressive lo cut on the XY mics. I m pretty happy with it. Shoot, I don't even care THAT much when the sound is "muddy" - it's all for seeing who screwed up the most (lol) and to throw on youtube for 50 people to watch (lol again).
     
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  10. CaptainT

    CaptainT Senior Member

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    I love that song! Is there any chance to buy your EP somewhere? I really dig your stuff:) @mmd. I am located in Germany, so a source where I can buy and download would be great:)

    I am just giving the Helix Native Trial Version a go and I intend to get myself a Helix at the end of december for my 40th birthday together with a EV ZLX12P Speaker...and all because of you (well, and the other modelling enthusiasts here in the Forum XD)

    Cheers,

    CT
     
  11. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

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    @CaptainT - Thanks man! Give me your address and I'll send you one. Our digital distribution got pulled because of a flub the bassist made with the songwriting credits/copyrights. If you'd rather download, let me know and I can get something going there!!

    I am sure you will LOVE the Helix - Native or hardware. It really was a game changer for me. In another thread (somewhere, lol) I talk about my and my band's feeling when I busted out the Rivera for practice one day....the overall consensus was VERY negative. Nobody thought it made any sense to use. The common thing was not that it necessarily sounded "bad" - it just wasn't as "clear" and "focused" sounding as the Helix. The other observation was that it had to be (according to the drummer) RIDICULOUSLY LOUD to sound good.

    I could go on and on about the awesomeness of the Helix, but I am sure you have been reading, lol. If you want some patches, let me know. I have been helping a guy in England get going with his Helix, and have been developing a bunch of "amps" for him so he can "see" different ways of working patches/routing, etc.

    I am currently working on a bank of "vintage amps". I have been going through all of the pre-master volume style amps and making VERY simple amp/cabinet presets for recording. The only effects I have been adding are whatever the amp has built in - spring reverb and/or tremolo. The only "rig" I added drive pedals to was the Twin Reverb. It's sort of the amp you would do that with, you know? I built a nice sounding Twin then added a RAT, DOD 250, TS808, and a Big Muff...all pedals I have known guys with KILLER tone to use in front of their Twins. Most of the other amps I have done have a "pushed" button - I copied the amp I dialed in and made it more driven, then added the amps to a footswitch:

    * footswitch OFF = standard amp sound
    * footswitch ON = "pushed" version

    It's pretty cool. The options with the Helix are almost unending. It has been WELL over a year and I still have NO amp GAS and the Helix has not gotten boring. I learn new techniques/stuff everyday!!
     
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  12. CaptainT

    CaptainT Senior Member

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    @mmd Thanks, sounds great. I´d prefer to download it, I am willing to pay for it, I really dig it, like I said:)

    Your experiences here in the forum were very helpful for my decision to get a Helix. I´ll have 12 more days with the native Trial Version and I´ll get a Helix Hardware in 3 weeks. I love the sounds I can get out of it and I didn´t even experiment with 3rd Party IR´s yet. I just downloaded the free Celestion IR, gonna look at it tonight.

    Glen DeLaune has some nice stuff, too, but right now I am pretty busy with testing everything. Nice nice nice.

    I am just not sure which one to get, Floor or LT, but I tend to go with the LT as it is around 300.- Euros cheaper. I´d get the EV ZLX 12P with the LT for the same orice as the Helix floor alone. The rack is nice too, but is extremely expensive in comparison to the rest. I could get two LT´s for the price of one Rack+floorboard.

    I wont be using Native later, but rather plug in the Helix itself and run it into the DAW. I only downloaded it to get a Feeling for the Helix sounds:)
     
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  13. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

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    Working on a digital format now. I'll PM you when it is ready!!

    Right on, man!! The LT is a killer piece!!
     
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