Alto TX10 & Helix for home use?

Discussion in 'Amp Modeling' started by James R, Aug 27, 2017.

  1. mdubya

    mdubya Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,999
    Likes Received:
    22,206
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2010
    jchrisf - I don't think you will improve your setup if you are happy with what you've got.

    If you said you felt limited with your setup or you were looking for a specific experience that your setup isn't giving you, then maybe, yes.

    My little Mustang I inspired me to do more with my "real" amps. But I wasn't missing anything at home with the real amps until the Mustang gave me more choices and options.

    The best thing about a good modeler is you have a couple dozen (or more) amps/sounds/effects in one box and can dial them in/up, to suit. Sounds like you already have that. And your setup gives you that real amp in the room experience which can be hard to recreate with a modeler and frfr. You can do it, but as Rhust says, it can be more like listening to an isolated rig played through studio monitors. I dial mine to sound like "amp in the room" but you already have that, it sounds like.
     
  2. jchrisf

    jchrisf Senior Member

    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    37
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Great explanation again Rhust.. thanks :) (Swimming in sound is the best I have heard to explain what I hear at home)

    I do like listening through headphones sometimes when playing my modelers but I prefer to hear it in the room and it sounds like I do have the best experience for my needs. Headphones do sound huge but in a different way than the small monitors and combo amps I have. I think the 4x12s give the same experience but in a much better and larger way.

    I might pick up a 10" Alto sometime if I see them on sale and if I don't like it, it will make a great mp3 player LOL. For me the stereo experience is an equal factor in making the sound so huge so I might have to get two :)
     
    Rhust likes this.
  3. jchrisf

    jchrisf Senior Member

    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    37
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2015
    I think you are right.. I think I already have the best type of setup for me. Sorry for the hijack but the OP asked a very good question that seemed to work well with this question that was on my mind.
     
    Rhust and mdubya like this.
  4. jchrisf

    jchrisf Senior Member

    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    37
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2015
    I got a Kemper today and by default it sounds better through the 5" monitors than through the cabs. I can see that it has a lot of potential through the cabs but I will have to learn it better. It has many more configurations than I was expecting. Honestly, I have been disappointed in it as most people say they are at first until they get to know it and dial in a tone they are happy with and then they seem to love it. For $1,800 I'm not sure I couldn't get close enough with some $150 software on the computer through my monitors.

    All that to get me to my question... If I get a subwoofer to compliment my monitors... would that help a lot or a little in making them sound as full and huge as my cabs?
     
    Rhust likes this.
  5. Rhust

    Rhust Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,871
    Likes Received:
    2,868
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    It could help, not sure. I know with my helix, through pa speakers or studio headphones, I actually end up cutting a lot more bass than usual. There's usually plenty of. Ass on tap, so I wouldn't add a sub, personally. By maybe your 5" speakers need that extra

    Also, make sure you disable the cab emulation if you are going to use the 4x12 cabs
     
    jchrisf likes this.
  6. jchrisf

    jchrisf Senior Member

    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    37
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2015
    I RTFM yesterday :) and found that I could put my main outs into my monitors stereo and then put a monitor out in mono and hook up something like a 10" FRFR speaker or even my cab(s). I'll have to give it a try. I found a really good profile that I like but honestly I haven't been blown away and I am sure I can get close to this great sound with something far less expensive. It doesn't seem that any good modelers/profilers/etc. really blows anything else right outta the water but you have to get what you prefer and when it comes to the top three you just can't try them before you buy... at least not the Kemper or Axe. It is the best thing I have ever heard and I far enjoy it more that tubes.
     
  7. Rhust

    Rhust Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,871
    Likes Received:
    2,868
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    I think they each have their strengths and weaknesses, but yea none of the top three(or 4, because I DO include amplifire RIGHT there with the other 3 in terms of sound) blow away the other 2(or 3). they are all great, it just comes down to preferences and budget. I think they all would fool an audience and even yourself.

    saturday I was trying to get a truly great, crunchy, metal tone... not a modern drop tuning tone, just a Kill em all, or maybe master of Puppets type tone and I just was struggling... nothing sounded like I wanted. but I have had days like that with tube amps too... sometimes the sound in your head just can't be found and you have to walk away... other days you aren't particularly going for any exact thing, and you stumble upon what you were looking for some other day... or something even better. modelling is no different. you maight work and work, and never quite find it, and then another day, it all just happens organically.

    none of the digital options are quite as intuitive as an amp... BUT no amp gives you as many options... too many options perhaps? I notice a lot of helix guys try to use the amp model of an amp they used to have.... only to realize the one closer to the sound in their head is some other amp model in the helix.
     
    jchrisf, AmpedUp and mdubya like this.
  8. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    12,587
    Likes Received:
    15,897
    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2011
    When I first had my Kemper, I ran it through 5" Monitors. I then added a Sub Woofer, and yes, that did help. But, imho, the 5 " held it back, particularly if your used to going through 2 4x12s. I did ultimately swap the 5" out for 8", which sounds substantially better imho.

    I also run through a Matrix amp into a Xitone 2x12 FRFR, and get almost the same experience as running through a 4x12, though with more aural space. Can't quite get the same in the room as a 4x12 as it just isn't as big a wall of sound

    The beauty is, you can still run the Kemper through your Rocktron to your 4x12a (just turn off the CAB portion of the Rig OR use DI profiles (have no CAB section and are made for this use).

    See my Opus in the Sticky. I have both the Kemper and Axe. I like both for different reasons, and together for some things I really like.

    Other recommendations I would make, with just your 5 " monitors. Play with the Amp compnant tweaks (press the Amp button, scroll through the parameters on screen.) There are a few that will help with the small speakers.

    Kemper is only as good as the profiles. What comes stock, imho has a lot I wasn't fond of, and did NOT show the amp off at it's best. There are a bunch of good FREE ones at Kemper site, from some of the top sellers of profiles. Download and try them out. See whose sound better to your ears. Then go purchase some from that profiler.

    https://www.kemper-amps.com/downloads/10/Rig-Packs

    They also show up on the newer Rig Manager version, in a separate Rig Pack folder, so you can just dbl click and try some. I like M Britt profiles, others like Chop Tones, Top Jimi and Soundside.
     
    jchrisf and Rhust like this.
  9. jchrisf

    jchrisf Senior Member

    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    37
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Thanks guys. I have discovered with the Kemper that I like the monitors better than the Cabs. I was able to dial in some better tone with the monitors and it surprised me how big they sounded. I'm thinking of getting a bigger 8" monitor or even a 10" FRFR to run mono out of the Monitor output down the centerline and running the 5" monitors in stereo out of the Main Outputs Left and Right of me and seeing how it sounds.

    I have a cheap pair of Samson SR850 headphones that sound amazing with the Kemper. I wish the monitors would sound just like them. Might have to get a Samson 8" monitor and see if it will match it. I have the Kemper breathing fire through these headphones.
    [​IMG]
     
    cybermgk, mdubya and Rhust like this.
  10. mdubya

    mdubya Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,999
    Likes Received:
    22,206
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2010
    I have been thinking of doing exactly that with the AX8; adding monitors to the QSC K8 I have.

    I was very frustrated early on that I had to tweak my cab block settings to make everything sound good, but that is reality and once done, it all sounds great. I mostly had to change the low filter from 20 whatevers to over 100 whatevers.

    [rant] I thought it should sound perfect out of the box. I think this is a shortcoming that needs to be addressed or people are going to continue to be put off.

    Kemper, Fractal, and Line 6 should all have reasonable solutions available (speaker wise) that require no tweaking; just plug and play.

    I haven't heard of a single monitor or frfr set up that doesn't require cab block editing. That is a PITA for me, and a big turn off altogether for many others.

    With Fractal, their models are voiced with $10k studio monitors. That is fine and dandy, but that is NOT relatable to 99% of their potential customers. I don't hear too many people raving about Line 6's own monitor, either. If they did, we would all own them.

    I am sold on, and happy with, my AX8, but I hear way too many excuses made for what they can and cannot do. JMHO.

    If I were Fender, or Marshall, or even Gibson Lifestyles ™ I would be licensing or reverse engineering Fractal and/or Line 6 Helix technology and mass producing purpose built modeling monitors that sound like an amp in the room. Instead we get gimmicky junk like the Fender GT (a step backwards for the Mustang line?!?!? ) and the CODE (which tries to recreate all of the negative aspects of the early Line 6 stuff).

    [/rant]
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
    matthew bear, Rhust and jchrisf like this.
  11. Rhust

    Rhust Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,871
    Likes Received:
    2,868
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    I agree with you... FWIW, the line6 FRFR thing does get a lot of love... but they are F-ing expensive!
     
    jchrisf, Donal and mdubya like this.
  12. Donal

    Donal ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Premium Member

    Messages:
    13,008
    Likes Received:
    11,790
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2009
    I have to disagree with that one. I love my Line 6 StageSource and have said so in many threads, I would also seriously recommend it for Helix users. They may be a little more expensive than other FRFR speakers but not that much. Also Line 6 uses them for setting up their sounds so you are hearing the tones "as designed" (be that good or bad). :wave:
     
    jchrisf, mdubya and Rhust like this.
  13. Rhust

    Rhust Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,871
    Likes Received:
    2,868
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    On the line 6 forum the stage source gets mad love... also the firehawk 1500, which can be used as an FRFR, but can also be a backup rig
     
    Donal and mdubya like this.
  14. Rhust

    Rhust Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,871
    Likes Received:
    2,868
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    One more option is the dt20 or 50 amps.. they also have a way to be used as a FRFR, with a tube power section
     
    mdubya likes this.
  15. mdubya

    mdubya Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,999
    Likes Received:
    22,206
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2010
    I considered doing that with a Mustang III, also. Even though it is not FRFR, I have heard demos where is sounds good as a monitor. And you get a Mustang III along with it.

    I am happy enough with the QSC at the moment. It is kind of funny that each monitor has its own characteristic tone also. So not all FRFR are really equal. The Friedman is dark, the Alto TS is bright, the QSC is darker. The Line 6 seems to be brighter.

    This is an interesting demo. The real amp sounds best, to me. The QSC sounds just like my QSC (imho). I like the Line 6 L2M least, but the more he cycles thru each, the more they sound good, to me.



    BTW-I have used the HF boost on the QSC at times and it removes that blanket sound without being awful. Really makes a darker model sound good sometimes. I know that is supposed to be a no-no, but it works for me.

    Lately, I have been playing with the QSC right next to my ear (low volume obviously) and it really sounds good that way. Almost as good as headphones, which is off the charts.
     
    matthew bear and Rhust like this.
  16. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    12,587
    Likes Received:
    15,897
    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2011
    How I run my Kemper and Axe most of the time, JBL Monitors and Xitone 2x12 via Matrix. Wall of sound and visceral. But, I also love each by their own too. I run the Kemper and Axe into one of these:

    [​IMG]

    So I can maintain stereo to both monitor pair and xitone.
     
    Rhust, jchrisf and mdubya like this.

Share This Page