Actual CITES and Cross Border Info Canada/US Shipping

Discussion in 'Gibson Les Pauls' started by yamariv, Nov 23, 2017.

  1. yamariv

    yamariv Senior Member

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    Thanks for the Info!
     
  2. Pappy58

    Pappy58 Senior Member

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    What about the <10kg rule stated above?
     
  3. 2manyGuitars

    2manyGuitars Senior Member

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    Brazilian falls under Appendix I (the strictest regulations) because it's threatened with extinction.
    The 10 kg rule only applies to Appendix II.
     
  4. Pappy58

    Pappy58 Senior Member

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    But thats not what this says: - CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN THE 10KG RULE? DOES 10KG REFER TO THE TOTAL WEIGHT OF THE ITEM OR THE WEIGHT OF PORTION OF THE ITEM THAT IS MADE OF ROSEWOOD?
    Paragraph (b) shown in the previous section indicates that specimens that weigh under 10kg (22 lbs) and are traded for non-commercial purposes are outside the scope of CITES controls. Specimen refers to the weight of the rosewood species in the item and not the overall weight of the item. For instance, in the case of a musical instrument transported for personal use, a 12 kg (26 lbs) instrument containing 5 kg (11lbs) of parts made from Dalbergia would be outside the scope of CITES controls.

    "outside of CITES controls" would include all appendix', would it not?
     
  5. 2manyGuitars

    2manyGuitars Senior Member

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    It starts by saying "Paragraph (b) in the previous section". I know it's kind of buried, but it says certain types are outside the scope and then specifies Dalbergia species in Appendix II.

    DO THE INCREASED TRADE CONTROLS APPLY TO ALL SPECIMENS OF DALBERGIA?
    No, certain types of rosewood specimens are outside the scope of CITES and, therefore, are not subject to CITES controls.
    The CITES listing for the Dalbergia species in CITES Appendix II specifies types of specimens that are outside of the scope of CITES controls including:
    a. Leaves, flowers, pollen, fruits and seeds; and
    b. Non-commercial exports of a maximum total weight of 10kg per shipment.
     
  6. Pappy58

    Pappy58 Senior Member

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    So to summarize, the consensus here is that "any" Customs officer could decide any guitar with a "rosewood" looking fretboard to be an appendix 1 violation and seize it? So even if your git is non-braz, you better have documents to prove it?! If so this seems wide open for abuse to me. My experience with the customs dudes even 20 years ago is they are looking for quantities where profits are to be made, not for singular personal items....but warning received.... :run:
     
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  7. grumphh

    grumphh Senior Member

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    I was just joking of course, but the reality is that customs personnel are now aware that a guitar could contain the highly illegal brazilian.
    This is probably low on their priority list so chances are that even today they wouldn't ask you to open a guitar case (unless you look like a drugged out musician type old enough to own an actual brazilian RW adorned guitar) and getting your guitar across a border is probably as easy as it has always been.

    The problem is that they might want to see that guitar (bored border guards, anyone?) because they have been made aware of the rosewood issue, even if you look cleancut and geeklike and all, and if they find a darkish wood on the neck they certainly can't tell which species of rosewoood is actually used (if RW at all) without lab testing.
    That's when your guitar mysteriously disappears until further testing has been carried out :D
     
  8. grumphh

    grumphh Senior Member

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    Actually i don't see any potential for abuse here - i mean, that would just be following the law to the letter, if a border guard is genuinely concerned with CITES regulations (insert roaring laughter here) he should confiscate anything that might be under CITES 1 rules.

    If the border guard is not genuinely concerned chances are you'll just get waved through like the guy on page one who crossed the border multiple times with a US bought guitar.
     
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  9. Pappy58

    Pappy58 Senior Member

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    Yeah you hit on my points. One guy may not give .02, but the next shift has an arse that simply likes to abuse the authority...
     
  10. Left Paw

    Left Paw Senior Member

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    I guess those baked maple boards might be looking pretty good to some folks right now.
     
  11. JohnInNJ

    JohnInNJ Junior Member

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    I'm reading a lot about folks still buying from Japan, from Europe and having guitars shipped to the US without any problem. So has anyone heard of ANY problems in CITES confiscating a shipment of 1 guitar? Certainly there are a lot of sellers, legit and mostly not legit, on eBay, from Japan, more than willing to sell you a guitar with rosewood and ship it to anywhere in the world without any CITES paperwork.
     
  12. Subterfuge

    Subterfuge Member

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    I live on the border and have crossed hundreds if not thousands of times in my life, declare the guitar, pay the duty and have a nice day. I would say the chances of a Border guard calling in an expert the determine the exact species of the fingerboard wood are about as good as the odd's of you or I winning the PowerBall lottery ..
     
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  13. JohnInNJ

    JohnInNJ Junior Member

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  14. Pappy58

    Pappy58 Senior Member

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  15. Thumpalumpacus

    Thumpalumpacus Senior Member

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  16. Thumpalumpacus

    Thumpalumpacus Senior Member

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    There was a thread here last week about a UK member whose Les Paul (coming from America) has been held up for months at Customs due to screwed up/nonexistent CITES paperwork.
     
  17. Nippon

    Nippon Insert Kanji here... Premium Member

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    I just bought two rosewood Strats, in Tokyo. Flying back with them to Australia, on Tuesday. Lets see how it goes:hmm:
     
  18. yamariv

    yamariv Senior Member

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    If they aren't Braz you shouldn't have a problem at all cause you aren't shipping. Fingers crossed! Keep us posted!
     
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  19. Nippon

    Nippon Insert Kanji here... Premium Member

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    One store refused to sell me a guitar, as soon as I whipped out my passport. I explained the personal use and 10kg exemption, but they didn't buy it. This store was Ikebekuru Ishibashi Music.

    I ended up buying one of the guitars from the Yokohama Ishibashi, without an issue. Looks like all the Ishibashi staff have not been briefed on non commercial sales, in regard to CITES.
     
  20. yamariv

    yamariv Senior Member

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    That's annoying, a lot of people don't bother to look into the process and just assume the worst and just say no.. When that happens, we loose great guitar options and they loose a sale.. I'm surprised they refused the sale though, why would they care either way as long as you bought the guitar and walked out with it..
     

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