5c1 Champ

Discussion in 'The Squawk Box' started by 0x00, Jun 2, 2010.

  1. 0x00

    0x00 Banned

    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    1,656
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    I've spent some time reading up/listening to youtubes and other clips I could find of different Champ circuits. I'm infected with the 5c1 tone... which may pass with time, but for now, oh my. I must have it.

    From what I've gathered thus far, there seems to be plenty of 5f1 based amps and kits, but as far as 5c1 goes I only found it at Weber. I like that they will build it for me, as much as I'd like to diy, at this point I just don't have the time for it. With that said...

    Any other 5c1 kit suppliers/builders I should look at?
    What is your experience with quality of Weber kits/builds?
    From the volume/tone perspective 8 or 10" speaker? Over time I came to the conclusion that my 15w super champ xd with a 10" speaker is much louder than I would like out of a practice amp.
     
  2. Rich

    Rich Non sequitur Premium Member

    Messages:
    24,602
    Likes Received:
    59,091
    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2009
    I have a Weber 8A100T in my 1966 Champ and like it a lot. For it's size, it puts out a surprisingly good amount of low end. When I bought it, they offered the speaker in either 3.2 or 4 ohms and this is what Ted told me when I asked:

     
  3. BillB1960

    BillB1960 Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,911
    Likes Received:
    21,182
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2008
    Double post
     
  4. BillB1960

    BillB1960 Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,911
    Likes Received:
    21,182
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2008
    Man...listen to the difference between this vintage Champ and the Swart:

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCvLdZq8p5Q&feature=related]YouTube - Vintage Fender Tweed Champ and Swart Space Tone[/ame]
     
  5. hipofutura

    hipofutura Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,987
    Likes Received:
    2,418
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    The Swart is a great amp, but I have to go with the Champ.

    I have the 5F1 Tweed circuit and think it amazing, but I've never heard a 5C1 circuit Champ. At some point I'll have to look at the schematic and see what's different.

    I really favor a 10" speaker with these small amps. They can be extremely articulate, yet move enough air to feel right. The 8" speakers just don't move enough air for my liking.
     
  6. BillB1960

    BillB1960 Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,911
    Likes Received:
    21,182
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2008
    Yeah...I like the Swart too but it just got destroyed by the 5F1 in that clip.
     
  7. Cygnus X1

    Cygnus X1 Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,570
    Likes Received:
    2,963
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2009
    I did a similar thing with the Deluxe 5E3...built a 5C3 to compare.
    The platform lended itself to octals and I didn't really want to deal with
    converting to miniatures, plus I was not confident about the current.

    A pic of the conversion:
    [​IMG]

    While I know this is no Champ it shares the octal 6S(x)7 preamp.

    What I found was about zero headroom, but it was SWEET.
    I played with the coupling caps and resistors to give a little breathing room.
    Guilty, I can't remember exactly where I ended up.
    (I do have highly detailed Autocad drawings...too lazy to grab them...)

    But expect an outcome that will be far more tweed than you might expect.
    La Grange all day long, but if you want shimmering Fender clean, you aren't likely to find it in that circuit.

    Great for some things, but not for that.
     
  8. 0x00

    0x00 Banned

    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    1,656
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Thank you for comments, gentlemen, certainly appreciated.

    Here's a clip that did it for me:

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx20ycGFZQQ]YouTube - 1952 Fender Champ 5C1 amp with 73 Tele thinline deluxe[/ame]

    He also does one with a strat and p90s. To me that sounds so awesome, but I'll admit to never really being into the "bright Fender cleans".

    I do like that ceriatone champ of yours, the circuit switch is just such a cool feature on your amp.
     
  9. hipofutura

    hipofutura Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,987
    Likes Received:
    2,418
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    I hate to say this, but that clip doesn't do much for me. I think just about any Champ would sound like that if you dimed it, ran hot pups, and used a crappy speaker. I hear way too much speaker distortion for my liking. You could get that same tone with a 5F1 circuit and cheap 6" speaker.
     
  10. 0x00

    0x00 Banned

    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    1,656
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Dimed? Blasphemy, mister, these go to 12 :)

    That's interesting, however. :hmm: For the sake of discussion, here's another clip.

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2POQEkInmw]YouTube - HTH AMPS 5C1 Champ (zz top, tush)[/ame]

    To me these are missing the brights that are turning me off the later circuit Champs. Granted this is youtubes, my ears vs your ears, etc. so it's fairly moot.
     
  11. hipofutura

    hipofutura Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,987
    Likes Received:
    2,418
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    That clip is a better demo as it doesn't have all the speaker distortion. I believe you could do the same setup with a 5F1 circuit and you wouldn't know the difference unless you could play them back to back.

    I just bopped around youtube and listened to several clips of the two circuits. I can't see where the 5C1 circuit sounds any brighter than the 5F1. There are too many variables to really tell. Different guitars (single coil vs humbuckers), different speakers, different music, and some use slides. My Champ can get quite shrill if I want.

    This weekend I'll try to find time to look at the two schematics and see what's different.

    Keep in mind the factory speakers were junk in these amps, and many have been replaced. Not uncommon for the replacement speaker to be no better than the original as these are/were cheap amps and most people don't want to put a $150 speaker in them.
     
  12. hipofutura

    hipofutura Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,987
    Likes Received:
    2,418
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    I just took a look at the two schematics. The 5F1 is running a higher B+ which will give it a cleaner signal. The real difference is in the preamp driver. The 5C1 is a single pentode while the 5F1 is a dual triode. I don't know what affect that has on the signal. It's not a commonly used approach so I can only assume we have evolved beyond it and was therefor not as good.
     
  13. 0x00

    0x00 Banned

    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    1,656
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    I see your point, it puts this in a different perspective for me.

    Just so there's no misunderstanding, I do want to point out that I never said 5c1 was a better circuit than 5f1, or that it sounded brighter. I just prefer the tone that I thought was majorly attributable to it.
     
  14. hipofutura

    hipofutura Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,987
    Likes Received:
    2,418
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    The internet truly is remarkable. It enables us to share facts, opinion, experiences, and anecdotes. I can't begin to measure what I've learned from MLP and other online sources. It's not only a tool I use for work, but it adds an entirely new dimension to hobbies.

    My fault, I misunderstood your comment about brightness.

    I'm curious to see where you end up with your amp search. :thumb:
     
  15. Cygnus X1

    Cygnus X1 Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,570
    Likes Received:
    2,963
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2009
    Ah, yes.

    Oh.
    Hi there.

    BTW and stuff.
    :D
    (Hip is right, I was just trying to throw in some real world experience).
    See above, somewhere.
     
  16. Quill

    Quill Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,548
    Likes Received:
    3,033
    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    5E3, 5C3, 5F1, 5C1 ... I constantly have one eye open for an explanation of this nomenclature; have even tried to search for it a few times, but ...

    My best guess is that these letters and numbers were used by Fender to refer to particular circuits, but, I dunno.

    So? Does anyone know what they are, and care to explain?

    p.s. Hey, Cyg, I saw your post about that amp! Yet another beautiful thing from your always very interesting bench.


    (I also think the tweed Champ kills the Swart in that video, but, who knows how they've been set up ... if it was about which one to own and other similarly presently impossible daydreams, I'd probably buy the Swart before the Champ, unless I could get a really good look at the Champ first ...)
     
  17. hipofutura

    hipofutura Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,987
    Likes Received:
    2,418
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    They are the Champ circuit numbers. Started out in the late 40's and then evolved through the 5B1, 5C1, 5E1, 5F1, then into the Black Face, and ultimately the Silver Face.

    I may have missed some. The 5F1 is the "Tweed" circuit, which is widely recognized as the pinnacle of Fender SE designs.
     
  18. hipofutura

    hipofutura Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,987
    Likes Received:
    2,418
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Quill, next time you're in Maine come try my Ceriatone VC. I'll think you'll be convinced!
     
  19. Quill

    Quill Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,548
    Likes Received:
    3,033
    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Well, thanks! 5F6-A is one of the Bassman circuits, yes? So is it the "1" that tells you it's a Champ circuit? Presumably, "6" might mean "Bassman" ... and Deluxe, Super, Twin, etc might have their own numbers ... that letter in the middle, "A", "B", "C", etc. looks like a revision level ... can't help but wonder what the "5" is about; maybe that indicates "Fender"? Wouldn't be the first time a "5" is in place for an "F", to avoid confusion ...

    I suppose any good book on Fender amps would tell all, but ... this is so much more sociable, don't you agree?
     
  20. Quill

    Quill Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,548
    Likes Received:
    3,033
    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Talk about impossible daydreams. Man, if I ever can, I will. I have not seen yet a picture of a Ceriatone build, or heard a clip here or anywhere else, that did not blow me away. Just great, great stuff.

    I have looked at their JTM45 kit many, many times. And then been completely distracted by all the gazillion other things they do ... amazing, the ground that company covers.

    Right now, I am so completely happy with my old Twin, with two power tubes pulled, and this is before the Mercury OT and choke I have sitting on my shelf have been installed ...
     

Share This Page