Any Tips for Buying a 50s Les Paul Junior?

[imsilly]

Hi,

I've been looking to buy my first Les Paul and out of all the models I have tried the vintage Les Paul Juniors are the ones that really spoke to me. I also liked the historic reissues of the Juniors, but they didn't seem to get me as excited as the old beaten up vintage models and the still cost a bucket load.

The problem is that I live in the UK and the only places I manage to find vintage Les Paul Juniors are in high end guitar shops that charge dramatically inflated prices.

Any tip for helping me find a nice 50s Junior for a reasonable price?

Also any particular things I should look out for with these models that increase or decrease value?

Finally other then just using my ears, any tips on how to spot a good one?

Thanks

[jimmyq]

Originally Posted by imsilly

Any tip for helping me find a nice 50s Junior for a reasonable price?

Welcome!

What do you consider to be 'reasonable'?

[Hemply]

Picking out a vintage Junior is just so much fun, and can be pretty frustrating as well. Personally, I have never played a bad vintage Junior... that's the problem!

One thing to look out for when selecting a Jr is to make sure it is original or as close as you can get to being all original.

If you don't know the difference just by looking at a 1955 P90 and a 2009 P90 do your best to find someone who does. Once you make your selection have it inspected by the person who is in "the know". I have a friend who purchased a 1954 Fender Strat and I was there when it was painfully and thoroughly inspected before my friend put out the $125k.

Prices are high on the vintage LP's, whether here in the US or in the UK, you're going to pay top dollar but also keep in mind how the economy is presently, that should give you some room to negotiate a better price for yourself.

"Trust" who you are purchasing your vintage Jr from, big one there! I have two friends who have been secuing my vintage purchases for me. I turst them both impeccably, it also helps with the price. Friends are a litte more willing to take a hit on their profit than a stranger would be so inclined.

Whatever you decide on YOU have to like it. I have 6 solid body electric guitars, most Les Pauls, new, historic, and vintage. Even with these varied selections I find myself playing my vintage Jr the most, that speaks volumes to me!

Good luck and please keep us posted!

[Texas07R8]

I like the way you think. I agree there is something special about those old vintage Juniors. They have a feel and tone that you just have to strap on an experience yourself to really appreciate it. If it's got a good neck (no breaks) original frets, P90 and hardware and isn't beat to hell and back then yes, they aren't cheap but rightly so IMO.

I still can't believe the prices some old Jr's sell for these days if they're beatup or have any issues that may not even effect tone and playability.

I have seen some vintage Jrs. with issues but still play and sound good sell for about what a Custom Shop Jr. reissue sells for today. That's frikkin' nuts!

If you find a minty one all original, none to little fading, with case then it's going to cost much more than a beat up player with a neck repair.

I'd shop ebay, they're there and that's probably the best price you'll find one. I know the issues you have in the UK finding vintage Gibsons that don't cost as much as a Porsche. My guess is if you find one online at a good price get it if it's from a reputable seller and eat the VATs, still probably less than one hanging in a shop in London.

Spotting a good one??? that's tricky, all I can say is look for one with original frets, the Jrs. don't have a bound fretboard so the Brazilian rosewood edges show the fret tang and normally has a coat of lacquer over it. It shouldn't be very difficult to spot a refret.

Look at the fretboard for wear in the rosewood, typically you will see grooves under the strings between the frets on the high E, B and G strings. If it's been played a LOT you will typically see those wear grooves on the first 3-5 frets from the nut. Also, check the nut, does it look original, again it's not too hard to spot a replaced one unless a total expert did it back in the day and it aged nicely.

Check the neck and TR, make sure the neck isn't back bowed or warped. If it has the original tuners they are not that great at keeping one in tune but they seem to fare better than those burst tuners. If it has Grovers or whatever, sure it decreases the value some but if you're going to keep it for playing it isn't a deal breaker and will stay in tune better. I was tempted to change my mint original tuners to Grovers just so it hold a tune better but I have a very nice 59 and want to keep it all original.

Check the neck joint carefully, if the neck looks good and the body is beat it could have been reset. If you have a UV lamp bring it and inspect the guitar under UV lighting in the dark. You should see all the nitro have a soft glow about it, any repairs will likely show up bigtime under UV, if the knobs are original they will glow like hell too.

Even on a good condition vintage don't get worked up over misc. dings and dents, it's normal and common to see several small dings etc.

If you can, pull the pickguard, on my 59 DC Jr. I don't even have to remove my strings, just four screws. Check the color of the top under the guard. Compare it to the exposed top to get some idea of how much or little it's faded. A bright cherry DC is not super common, most have faded to a pale reddish brown, sometimes almost orange. Some are still very deep cherry. My 59 has little wear and hardly any fading.

While you have the pickguard off, check that neck pocket. Should be clean with nice tight joints.

I don't know if you want a single cut or double cut Jr. either one is a fine guitar and frankly, I want a 58 single cut Jr to go with my 59 DC. 58 is my birth year so that's why I want a 58 SC.

If I had the bucks, I'd be buying every decent priced vintage Junior I could find now. The price difference between Historic Jrs and player Jrs is almost nothing. A few years back you were hard pressed to find a good Junior under $10k in the states.

I cannot believe that Jr prices won't rebound soon and when the market does correct I bet Jrs. will be climbing faster in price than most anything else out there.

Oh, one last thing, if you do find one and it has the original alligator looking outside and that hard non padded chipboard inside, KEEP IT! those cases didn't wear well and few are in top condition these days, so if you find a good Jr with a good case take care of both. I actually have a second modern case fully padded I keep Jr. in rather that the original case which is in great shape but it's just not good enough to keep a vintage guitar in.

My bro Hemply scored a nice 59 Jr. too. He didn't get in a hurry and shopped until he found the one HE wanted. Nice score he got there... I guess my point is be patient, your Jr. is out there waiting for you to find her.

Also, Uncle Greg may have a few things to add regarding old Juniors. He's the vintage Jr. guru round here... He likes them with broken headstocks so he can buy'em cheap and fix them up and keep them! LOL... I think he swears that a Jr. with a repaied headstock crack sounds better than a problem free one, I don't know about that, mine sounds pretty damn good and has plenty of sustain. But seriously, Greg knows Juniors. If he doesn't post here then PM him and see if there's anything he'd add.

[imsilly]

Hi,

Thanks for the great replies so far.

The price variation is the real killer for me, that is where I've the real issues. I need to build up a good set of rules for determining prices when I go out shopping.

Ideally I was looking for a single cut in a burst or TV yellow (I think TV yellows are out of my price range though) even though I'm a big Johnny Thunders fan I just love the shape of those single cuts. I'm not not that much of a stickler for condition, but originality is a much bigger concern of mine. I'm basically want a players guitar that if things go bad I won't make a loss on by selling because it's in such a state no one would want it.

Here UK I have seen single cut bursts Jrs going for anything from £2,500 in a classified ad and £10,000 in a posh London Shop, both 57s and with cases. I know I should have jumped on the £2,500 one, but I don't have a job at the moment and it is only now that I am liquidising some vintage amps I have any cash at all. That is the extreme variation in price, most of the time they come in between £4,000 and £7,000 in shops. I have been playing for about a year so I don't have any price knowledge before about June last year when I bought my first guitar and I started going to shops, checked ads and auctions.

I don't know much, but I know the heart of a guitars tone is in it's pickups so is there an handy guides to picking an original 50s P90? There has to be at least a nice set of photos around I can memorise and use as a reference?

Also as far as the refret question, I really want a Junior I can play so refrets are not an issue to me, but how much do they impact on price?

Finally what is the view of the early SG Juniors? I know their price is well under that of a LP Junior and I also heard their shape makes them great for slide. What are they worth in comparison?

Thanks

[jimmyq]

Awesome post, Texas. All great advice, my friend.

[jonesy77777]

what about a refinish, what kindof prices are they going for?

[PorkChop]

I have a '59 DC jr and a '63 SG jr they don't sound radically different. Neither one is mint. The '59 had a clean humbucker routing, put a '59 P90 back in it, grovers put on, plugged and replaced with single lines. you can barely tell, but no breaks or repairs, original frets, no fretboard wear, plays great and saved thousands. The '59 is more solid than the SG. I would say just stick with the LP route and don't try and get half way there to save the dough. I am looking for an affordably '57-'58 SC too. Love the Juniors and it is hard to go wrong in my limited experience.

[Liam]

I'm UK based, and was in the same position as you about 15 months ago, and after a lot of looking actually ended up going for a well used '55 Sunburst Single Cut from US Ebay, all original except for the volume knobs, which are late 50s as far as I (and a very knowledgable fellow I know from this forum) can tell.

The original frets are really skinny "Banjo" frets, so I've kept them, but they aren't in the guitar anymore. I agree with the originality vs. playability argument you put forward, but if I sell it I guess they could be reinstalled. Moot point as I can't see myself ever selling the guitar.

Some tips if you want to go down this route...

Only pay via Paypal with a credit card funding the transaction, not a debit card or transfer from your bank account. If the instrument never arrives, or isn't what you were paying for, you are covered by the "Credit Card Guarantee" in the country of purchase (check with your credit card company if you're buying from Botswana or Libya or anything weird like that, you aren't automatically covered everywhere.) Whatever you do never ever even consider wire transfer.

Use a decent parcel service with a guarantee for the full value of the instrument. It costs, but it's worth it.

If you're going to get a bargain you will need to study a lot of photos and read up everything you can about the instruments. The great deals come from ebay listings with crap photos that have scared everyone else off, BUT NOT the ones where they are trying to hide something. Try to get a feel for the honesty of the seller, and if you have any doubts, don't do it.

Find out the customs code for "collectors items". Vintage guitars are considered to be collectors items, and as such you don't pay any duty, and you pay a low rate for VAT.

Make sure the price is good enough that you can move the guitar on if you don't like it. You won't know what it's like until you get it, but crap Juniors seem to be a pretty thin on the ground... You're not one of these "unlucky" peope are you? I'm blessed with incredibly good luck all the time for some reason.

I've had some great deals on guitars in international ebay transactions. I ended up with a "beat but sweet" '55 Junior, all original with no cracks, breaks, refinishing or repairs, and alligator case, for £3700 including shipping and taxes. This was at a time when the equivalent here in the UK was £5000 and upwards, and I'm probably still doing OK with it in the current economic climate.

There's obviously a bit of bravery needed in this approach, and the odd sleepless night, but as Del Boy Trotter always said, "He who dares, wins, Rodney."

If you're not up for all that, you might want to speak to Richard Henry or Clive Brown. One of them will be able to find you something suitable and honest in the UK at a sensible price. You won't regret getting a 50s Junior, they are an amazing thing, although it took me a while to learn to play mine as it's almost a living thing.

Good luck!

Liam

[Liam]

Forgot to add, read this - all of it:

Vintage Guitars Info - Gibson collecting vintage gibson guitars

Very rough UK price guide for SC Sunbursts, mint seem to go up to about £8K, worn but original £4-6K, repaired get down into the £2-3K, less if they are short of original parts.

Originality is very important to collectors, but assuming an original guitar, condition is everything for these prices.

Earlier guitars have an issue with bridges leaning over and/or falling into the pickup rout. This was fixed in late '55. '57s consequently fetch the most money, but aren't necessarily better guitars.

In 10 years time you'll still have the guitar you buy, it will still be worth at least what you paid for it, even if you pay a bit too much, so it's actually cheaper than buying a Squier Strat.

Liam

[imsilly]

Hi,

This has all been really helpful.

The whole collectible for reduced duty thing is totally new to me. I think I will use that to my advantage. I might also look into the US purchase thing if the pound starts doing well against the dollar.

My girlfriend is travelling to Washington soon and I'm tempted to get her to pop into every guitar store she can while she is there and see what turns up.

I just hope I can find a decent junior before they start going up in price again. I really think they are a wonderful design. Having only used Telecasters in the short time since I have started playing guitar it was nice to find a model that warranted buying a second guitar. I just love P90s, but all the goltops I tried with them just didn't sing like the Juniors.

Other then brokers like Richard Henry or Clive Brown (is he the same guy that does amazing relic finishes?), online auctions or classifieds is there any other means to track Juniors down?

I sometimes have seen vintage guitars on sale at antique auctions and markets, but I suspect they are pretty expensive in places like that. Here in London I have tons of real life auction houses that I can pop into. Do they ever do instrument sales that aren't full of collectors picking up pieces are collector prices?

[Liam]

Selling prices in auction houses are good (i.e. low!) at the moment. There are a few that do musical instrument sales. The interesting stuff doesn't seem to be hitting its reserve too often, so worth checking the price guides, as some of the guide prices are a little unrealistic, and the reserves must be around the bottom of the guide prices.

Clive Brown is the same bloke that does amazing refinishes, but is also a serious Les Paul Junior/Special collector, and rates them above all other guitars as a player. He's definitely worth talking to, just for the enthusiasm and knowledge. He will probably also know who has got what guitars for sale in the UK and elsewhere.

Richard Henry is a dealer and broker, and gave me a lot of free and unbiased advice when I was looking for a Junior. He also has a lot of worldwide contacts, and seems to know what is for sale anywhere in the world at any point in time. I really can't say enough good things about him, as he is helpful when there's nothing in it for him. That says a lot to me.

There's an outfit down in Essex somewhere that seem to specialise in Juniors. I've only seen the adverts and online listings, they are a little cheaper than the West End shops, but only a little. I'll try to dig out their web address.

Liam

[Texas07R8]

you can play a Junior acoustically and know whether it's a good one or not. Mine has a wonderfully resonant tone playing her unplugged. That fat mahogany body with no maple cap glued to it seems to sound fuller and better tone than any LP Std. or Historic I've played unplugged (except for chambered ones).

If you're buying it for a player and don't LOVE the vintage P90, they are easy to pull and so are the electronics without unsoldering everything. I've heard of a few players that didn't think a vintage P90 had enough power and sensitivity. Personally I like that older tone, mellowed a bit maybe but sounds frikkin unreal through my Marshall.

[imsilly]

I really love the sound of vintage P90s, it is just one of those sounds you hear throughout blues and rock. I headed towards Juniors simply because of those Gibson single coils and the fact they seemed to be the best sounding guitars with them. I'm pretty much certain (or as certain as you can be about these things) my favourite ever record Rumble/Oddball was recorded by Link Wray with a P90 Les Paul into a Premier amp. I also love that late 50s Mickey Baker stuff with Sylvia that I'm sure was done with either a standard or custom Les Paul fitted with P90s. I just can't get that tone out of my head. The P90 is such a great pickup design.

Is there a way to get hold of a list of upcoming instrument auctions in the south of England? Any websites of publications that carry lists of them?

I hoped to make a visit to that Essex shop with a bunch of Juniors soon. I have noticed them advertised before online. I have family near there so it would be a good excuse to see them.

Clive Brown is a bit of legend, shame he is all the way up north. I have seen some of his work and it is amazing. His stuff kind of puts my old Cunetto era Nocaster Relic to shame finish wise, thank god for it's tone.

My only real worry is I find a nice Junior and I don't have enough cash to buy an old Tweed amp to go with it. I played a 1955 Junior into a Tweed Deluxe and it pretty much made me cry that I had to leave them in the store. Though I have a sneaking feeling an old Tweed Pro would also be great.

[lpcustom69]

From what I've gathered since I've been here, BCR Greg is the guy to talk to on these. He always seems to have a couple of nice ones on his site.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by imsilly

Is there a way to get hold of a list of upcoming instrument auctions in the south of England? Any websites of publications that carry lists of them?

This lot have catalogues published before hand with guide prices, and after with sale prices...

Gardiner Houlgate

[imsilly]

So I bit the bullet on a 50s Singlecut Junior in a nice Sunburst.

All the help from this forum was invaluable, but I need one last piece of help. Liam mentioned something about filling out the customs papers in the correct way to reduce the duty costs. Are there any more specifics about which codes to use when filling out these customs forms?

Like what are the specific custom codes needed as a "collectors items"?

And will I need them for US, UK or EU customs?

Thanks

[Liam]

You don't need them for bringing stuff from the EU, but if you're bringing anything in from outside you need the tariff code for a "collectors piece of historic interest". Which of course a 50s guitar is.

However I hate broadcasting the codes in case some muppet starts trying to bring in Squier Affinity Starts on the same code and queers the pitch for all of us. So...

Email me on ************ and I'll furnish the necessary details.

Liam

[PorkChop]

Way to go silly. You are now required to post pics on the day of delivery!

[bosrocker51]

Lots of good info here. I like the 1960 LP Jr over the earlier ones w fatter necks. I have pretty long fingers, but the thin neck is so much faster for me. Please let me make a suggestion... buy a more recent LP Jr that you like, and replace the P90 with a vintage one. They cost about $250-350 on ebay... you get all the sound without paying the price. Although, I do have to say - that old wood is nice, and I do recommend the 1960 Jr over others. BTW, vintage DC's are way cheaper than single cutaways...

[Danelectro]

If I were shopping for another Junior, I would be looking for a '57-'58 Sunburst Model that has already been refretted with larger frets. I've owned two '57s, both of which were nice original-condition guitars with the small frets. I absolutely hate those small frets, but I can't bring myself to replacing them because they are orignal parts. If I bought a Junior that had been refretted by a previous owner, I'd be a happy camper because I could play it guilt-free.

[imsilly]

Up until this point I have only played vintage and custom shop telecasters, so fat necks and thin frets are what I'm used too.

My 1956 Sunburst Singlecut Les Paul Junior arrives on Monday. I'll give an update then. I'm still looking for a nice amp to go with it. I already have a great amp for cleans my vintage Super Reverb, so I was looking for a smaller amp with less headroom and more complex breakup. I was considering either a vintage or clone Gibson GA-40 or Fender Deluxe 5E3. What do you think goes better with a Les Paul Junior?

[PorkChop]

I pair my 59 DC up with Valco amps (Supro, National, Gretsch. etc....) don't know how many watts you are looking for but I rock either dual 6973 models for volume levels (dirty) you can compete with drums with or the single 6V6 ones when the Mrs. watches TV in the other room, no pedals, just sweet raw rocking junior tone. Very responsive amps that you can get a good control of breakup with your pick attack, which is the beauty of juniors anyways to me. I have some pics in the "some junior pics just because thread" with a Supro 1624 that is a magical combo with the junior. Valco made the same circuits under many names and you can find all kinds of gems for much cheaper than vintage fender amps. I have 14 right now, which is oh so much more than plenty, and I need to sell to fund a 57-58 single cut version but most of them I got between $200-400, they all sound great, and we all know how serious GAS can be. Another, tip the Gretsch 6152, Supro, Oahu or Excelsior tremo-verb, Airline 9025A, National N6422 or any of the other single 6v6 with tremolo or reverb models, some (2 out of 4 for me) have a quirk where the reverb control doesn't add reverb but gain. Just dial in the extra gain you want from just a lil more pick attack to uncontrollable horrendous feedback. If the reverb does "work" it is a mild slapback, which is perfect for me. I know this is long winded but I swear by the Junior single P90 setup (Epiphone Coronet does the trick to) and the Valco pairing.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by imsilly

Up until this point I have only played vintage and custom shop telecasters, so fat necks and thin frets are what I'm used too.

My 1956 Sunburst Singlecut Les Paul Junior arrives on Monday. I'll give an update then. I'm still looking for a nice amp to go with it.

My '55 Junior sounds pretty amazing through any of my amps (there are a few), but it's particularly good through an old SFPR I've got. Given the similar topology to a 5E3 Deluxe, that's the way I'd go. Gotta sound cosmic, hasn't it?

Liam

[imsilly]

At the moment the only amp I have is an old Blackface Super Reverb with those beautiful CTS Alnicos in it. It's pure clean tone with the best onboard reverb ever produced. I was leaning towards a Tweed Deluxe, but even though I love them I think a Gibson GA-20 or GA-40 would be even more suitable. I was thinking something that would be hairy enough to get me to Elmore James or Ry Cooder territory. The major issue with this is that I can't find a single vintage Gibson amp in the UK and the US clones done by Buffalo Amps and Victoria Amps are less then competatively priced when compared with vintage originals.

BTW, thanks Liam for the shipping advice my customs charges came in at £160. I was laughing my arse off at it really. Everyone told me I'd get burnt from buying from the States, my local guitar shop owners words were something like, "watch out for the import duties they are what will screw you over." Then I chuckled to myself a bit.

[Stowburst]

Originally Posted by imsilly

I can't find a single vintage Gibson amp in the UK and the US clones done by Buffalo Amps and Victoria Amps are less then

A mate of mine has a Gibson tweed amp he is selling, is it a Invader? GA15?Will get some details for you..

BF Super is a killer amp, I would like one! I have BF Vibrolux Reverb at the moment and I think the Jensons are on the way out..

[imsilly]

Originally Posted by Stowburst

A mate of mine has a Gibson tweed amp he is selling, is it a Invader? GA15?Will get some details for you..

BF Super is a killer amp, I would like one! I have BF Vibrolux Reverb at the moment and I think the Jensons are on the way out..

I love Vibrolux Reverbs too, if you are getting new speakers go for vintage CTS 10" Alnicos vintages or Weber reissues, best blackface speakers there are.

Also it arrived just now, the Junior that is a 7lb "TONE MONSTER" and it looks brand new. I had to check the pots and serials, over and over again to convince myself it was real because there is a pretty much zero laquer checking and very few dings. The only real age is on the metal parts which have rusted a bit and the neck and scratchplate that look just played in. The only non-origianl parts to my eyes are the strings, case, tuner pegs and two screws. I am no expert so I'm gonna take it in for another check.

I don't have a camera phone shots will have to do.

Front



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Thanks for everyone that gave me advice, nearly all of it was useful. Especially the import stuff only cost me £150 in duty in the end. I wouldn't be able to afford it without that help.

[p90rules]

I bought my 59 Jr + matching amp about 16 years ago for £1200.
Unfortunately, in a moment of madness, I sold them. It was a wonderful guitar. Saying that, my Edwards LP TV Junior was a very close contender.
Avoid the High end shops, especially those with the initials MG.

[IMG][/IMG]

[imsilly]

That is a lovely Les Paul, I love those TV yellows. TV yellow just makes me think Johnny Thunders right away. He is a personal hero of mine.

I think I got a good price for my 56 burst around £3,000. I haven't seen one in a shop as nice as the one I landed for under £7,000, but then again shops in London do take the piss slightly.

[Stowburst]

Originally Posted by imsilly

but then again shops in London do take the piss slightly.

Slightly..

Great Junior man! looks very clean.

I will check out those vintage CTS 10" Alnicos speakers.. I did want some JBL 10s but they are hard to find!