OLD WOOD vs NEW WOOD ????

[BOBBO]

I know alot of people consider a guitars tone to be in the wood ! What do you think ?? Is it wood , pups , etc ??? and do you think that old wood is better than new wood ??????

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by BOBBO

I know alot of people consider a guitars tone to be in the wood ! What do you think ?? Is it wood , pups , etc ??? and do you think that old wood is better than new wood ??????

Are Old Guitars REALLY Better?

[BOBBO]

Originally Posted by lp59aholicDon

Are Old Guitars REALLY Better?

I didn't ask about old guitars Don .. I asked about Old wood !!! Alot of people are having 52 to 57 conversions rather than having a replica made or a historic because they believe that the age of the wood makes a real difference !! When you have a complete vintage guitar there are other factors such as PAF's , metal hardware and so on that contribute to the overall tone !! I'm just asking how people feel about the WOOD !!

[sapi]

Originally Posted by BOBBO

I didn't ask about old guitars Don .. I asked about Old wood !!! Alot of people are having 52 to 57 conversions rather than having a replica made or a historic because they believe that the age of the wood makes a real difference !! When you have a complete vintage guitar there are other factors such as PAF's , metal hardware and so on that contribute to the overall tone !! I'm just asking how people feel about the WOOD !!

Old wood must sound different due to changes in its composition over time. However worth keeping in mind, as stated in the other thread, that most of our fave tones were recorded on new guitars with new wood, pickups, etc.

[Harpozep]

Originally Posted by sapi

Old wood must sound different due to changes in its composition over time. However worth keeping in mind, as stated in the other thread, that most of our fave tones were recorded on new guitars with new wood, pickups, etc.

Yep, them olde guitars were not that old back when all that tone we so cavort was produced. We are all chasing rainbows, and there is always another rainbow!

I'll say my Duncan loaded G&L Asat Deluxe hollowbody has woody tone to die for and it did on day one a decade ago and still does. So, I think tone wood is tone wood. As it ages things do change that is a given, this is especially true of acoustic guitar bodies, and to some extent electrics to. Better/worse? Who can say.
I have no answer. Over time as wood ages variables change within its structure. Some may be for better, some for worse, like getting brittler.

It's like we discuss in the acoustic guitar forums, Dry guitar or wet guitar, which is better?
The banter goes both ways. I'd say Relative humidity and the wood's overall ability to hold H2O has the largest impact on the sound, and this no doubt changes with age. So perhaps it simply comes down to wet guitar or dry guitar, which sounds better........?

[Axeman16]

its the player.

[tiedstick]

Originally Posted by Axeman16

its the player.

+1. Thank you.

[george johnson]

I'll be the first to agree that the stronger the playa, the less reliant he'll be on equipment to "sound good"
but after years of research on the subject I've come to the following conclusion...


New Wood = Good


Old Wood = Better





Just my .02

.

[mapleflame]

I play a historic or new guitar out of one of my amps, then immediately play OLD wood, not a comparison. OLD wood, You think I spend the money I do just because of investment, nahhhhhhhhhhhh. There are very good playing new or newer guitars, I just like the old wood feel and sound.

[Axeman16]

old wood has the mojo factor of course, but i really dont think the wood's age makes a difference, maybe the hardware and electronics more so.

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by BOBBO

I didn't ask about old guitars Don .. I asked about Old wood !!! Alot of people are having 52 to 57 conversions rather than having a replica made or a historic because they believe that the age of the wood makes a real difference !! When you have a complete vintage guitar there are other factors such as PAF's , metal hardware and so on that contribute to the overall tone !! I'm just asking how people feel about the WOOD !!

Well Bobbo, its sort of a matter of samantics then, Having a conversion done, is still an old guitars with minor modifications
Sorta like Kit Cars, verses historic make over or refurbished with original parts cars verses one with all or many after market parts,
IF you go into a replica guitar, made with old growth woods, then yout getting closer to the older guitars
The reason I posted the other link is much of what was covered in that thread will come over here

[lifton]

I can`t say better or not, but maybe different. I think it`s more the construction of the instrument. It´s not just a piece of wood. There is a puzzle of the neck, fretboard, body and maybe the top. Every single piece has been cutted out in an individual way. So the orientation of the fibers vary from neck to neck, body to body and so on. The way a piece has been cutted is responsible for its way of shrinking. All those wooden parts of a guitar show different shrinking orientations, cause each piece is individual and organic.

I would say an old guitar may have seen a lot of climatic conditions, with all their influences on the whole thing. A lot of internal stress. That´s the big difference to a new one.

[LoKi]

The way I see it... All wood is just gonna get older anyway, until wood is a extinct species.

I know where you're coming from though... but you probably should have said 'old growth' wood.

I dunno if its as magical as people claim. Any guitar, after assembly, if played and loved and left to age *not surrounded by thick non-breathable finishes* should come into its own... someday. Old growth wood has something more organic to it... I dunno if its purely a placebo effect, or if there's something to it. I'd like to see some actual data on the subject, not that anything will convince the people who believe it to be true otherwise.

[ReverendJWblues]

I have Old Wood

[Roman Rist]

Old wood is better, however............ an old dog guitar is just that. a dog.

I am willing to bet the old LPs were great guitars the day they left the factory.

then they seasoned

One thing some folks do not realize is this; There is a magic that gets built into the instrument, a bit of the life force of the maker gets instilled into each instrument.

As perfect as machines can copy things, they have no magic.

Roman

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by RFR

Old wood is better, however............ an old dog guitar is just that. a dog.

I am willing to bet the old LPs were great guitars the day they left the factory.

then they seasoned

One thing some folks do not realize is this; There is a magic that gets built into the instrument, a bit of the life force of the maker gets instilled into each instrument.

As perfect as machines can copy things, they have no magic.

Roman

There ya go Roman, ! Again so agree and have seen this more than once, and finding those particular or lucking into that particular guitar that the maker(s) just put that extra special bit of care to, is another part of GAS and the search for that magic guitar

[60burst]

I have owned original Les Pauls since the 1970s and it is my opinion that they do not improve in tone as they age.

When most of us vintage guys refer to old wood we are simply referring to the original 50s and 60s guitars, not the age of the wood. Old wood ( wood used in the manufacture of Gibson and Fender guitars from the 50s and 60s) does sound better but because that is the way that wood used at that time sounds, not because a few decades have since passed. I have several guitars that I have owned since the 70s and none of the electrics have changed in tone, at all.

I will also add that old wood (again the woods used in constructing 50s and 60s Gibson and Fender guitars) does sound better than anything I have heard made since that time. That doesn't mean that there are not some great sounding new guitars, but as a rule, the old wood does sound significantly better to some of us.

[diceman]

Originally Posted by Axeman16

old wood has the mojo factor of course, but i really dont think the wood's age makes a difference, maybe the hardware and electronics more so.

By "old wood" I think we're talking about the wood used in the 50's, not about how long the wood has been in the shape of a guitar or how long it has "aged" as a guitar.

[LoKi]

Old wood means old 'growth' as in trees that had been standing for centuries before being cut down. Wood after it has been cut will dry out a little more over the years.

I have a 70's Paul and ever since moving to a super dry climate I've noticed a difference in tone *the last 5 years*. Call me crazy, but I can tell it is a different sounding guitar... Better to my ears even. When I lived on the coast where it was super humid all the time I never noticed a difference in 15 years of owning it, but 5 years in the 'desert' with -40 degree winters and the guitar seems to breathe better.

[Paul]

i like a guitar that has been broken in and have a bit of wear and age.

[Doctor Dread]

I have a friend who is distinguished European violinist, with a violine form 200 years ago. I was there when one of the most famous European violine expert examined his instrument. His (experts) story goes like this:

For wood & wire instruments, age counts, but even more important is the mileage. The moleculs in the wood are drying with age (decades and more), and if the instrument is played all along, the vibrations from the playing will make the moleculs settle along each other in a right way.

But he saw the Stradivari violins that are dogs. Not been played for 100 or more years. Now they sound dead, and there is no ammount of playing that will make them right again. The cells settled down in a wrong way.

So this guy (and an hour of his expertise cost a small fortune) says: age is important, older instruments sound better, but OLNY IF THEY WERE PLAYED. He speaks of fiddles and cellos, but the same goes for guitars.

[hedzeppelin]

Wouldn't an old guitar have older wood? I think so.....

[LoKi]

I wonder if I could get the wood carbon dated in my 79 Kalamazoo...

I think the construction of the guitar itself has more to do with the sound than age of the wood.

My 79 has a single piece mahogany body with 3 piece maple cap. The neck is a few pieces of maple with an ebony fingerboard. Not sure what type of tenon is in there, probably the short going by the date. Not in the mood to rip her apart just to find out.

The solid body or back I think makes for the best tone. Against my 88 Standard which probably has a 2 or 3 piece back, plus swiss cheese holes has an entirely different sound to it, thinner sounding with less natural resonance. The maple cap is probably 2 pieces, but I think the maple cap just adds presence, and doesn't really matter how many pieces are put together to make it, with maple being so dense and not absorbing as much vibration *making for more sustain*.

I believe that a solid body guitar, single piece no matter what the age of the wood will sound better than a multiple piece body... But maybe thats another discussion altogether.

So *just my opinion here* no matter how old the wood itself is, its the actual construction of the guitar that makes all the difference. Besides, wood being a living, growing thing is all different. Old wood vs. new wood? How can you really say when every tree is different anyway.

[Doctor Dread]

Originally Posted by LoKi

So *just my opinion here* no matter how old the wood itself is, its the actual construction of the guitar that makes all the difference. Besides, wood being a living, growing thing is all different. Old wood vs. new wood? How can you really say when every tree is different anyway.

LoKi, you're right, but there's more to it.

I've listened a f*cking Italian Philharmoncs expert on Stradivari violines explaining the value of old strings instruments. It has to be played. That's the main factor. You can make a guitar out of the best Honduran mahagony, Brazil rosewood etc, but if you leave it for couple of decades in the case, it will die. The aging of the wood will be done without vibrations, and it will sound lifeles.

The age is imprortant, construction ' n' stuff too, the primary choice of the wood... but the most important factor is the vibration from the playing. Only that ensures that the cells merge with each other in a right way.

On this forum I've found a New Zealand-or-wherever company making the guitars from trees 50 000 years old! And do they kill all of the existing instruments on the planet with an out-of-this-world sound? No.

I'm sad to think that my LP or Strats will realy start to kick ass only long time after I'm gone.

[loneguitar]

I think it's all a personal preference, old, new, I do agree that a guitar sounds better the more you play it, it ages as you do, but I think that alot of the guitarists that feel if they get an older guitar, retro, vintage whatever, that magically it's gonna make them better, that is a fantasy, the true tone sound and feeling of a guitar comes from with in the player, and not the instrument, it's what gives it it's own mojo, from the mating of the player and the dedication of him/her, over time it developes and makes it it's own.
And we as musicians will always chase that magic sound and try to analyze it, pick it apart to infinity, when simply put it's the soul. IMO

[Lousyatit]

I have both, and personally I prefer old. I also believe that the wood itself is a big part of the equation.

[Roman Rist]

Originally Posted by loneguitar

I think it's all a personal preference, old, new, I do agree that a guitar sounds better the more you play it, it ages as you do, but I think that alot of the guitarists that feel if they get an older guitar, retro, vintage whatever, that magically it's gonna make them better, that is a fantasy, the true tone sound and feeling of a guitar comes from with in the player, and not the instrument, it's what gives it it's own mojo, from the mating of the player and the dedication of him/her, over time it developes and makes it it's own.
And we as musicians will always chase that magic sound and try to analyze it, pick it apart to infinity, when simply put it's the soul. IMO

I agree 100% however, the minute you pick up an old wood guitar, the difference is quite something!

[LoKi]

I wonder how long it actually takes wood to 'season'. Firewood can be completely dry after a few months, but to season it, out in the elements... a year maybe?

You can actually petrify wood if you cover it in sand or mud in about a year. The 'wood' molecules sort of swap places with silicate turning the wood effectively to stone *which would probably sound like shit by the way in a guitar... and be heavy ta boot!*

I think going by the theory that the molecular structure of wood is altered by the slight vibrations of playing, you should be able to put a guitar or violin in an MRI machine, line up all the molecules so they are uniform, and then play it again immediately after to settle them into 'playing position' after being removed from the magnetic field.

That is if there is actually truth to this theory.

[siroliver]

Just curious: What would have qualities better suited for a musical instrument- a more dense board that has slightly more mass for its size, or one that has achieved a certain hardness? I am well aware that the hardness will effectively promote certain qualities, particularly the speed in which the sound travels(as sound is transferred best through a more solid medium), but what about mass/density? A denser, more massive piece would vibrate better, wouldn't it?

[LoKi]

Less density absorbs more sound, I believe, whereas very dense wood vibrates and lets the sound go freely.

I know that dense wood sustains better, but as to how it vibrates exactly, I'm not sure.

Tone wood all have differing resonant frequencies, which may or may not be directly related to their density. Hmm....