1959 Les Paul vs Stradivarius

[FLICKOFLASH]

1959 Les Paul vs Stradivarius


While a price of $450,000 + seems high for such a guitar, please keep in mind that they are not making them today like they used too. The wood is not "old wood" from first generation cut trees or from the same location as the trees were grown for old LP's. Along with everything else about the guitars, such as pickups, parts, etc., time has to be a big part of the equation as it ages things in it's own unique way that cannot be duplicated by modern processes.

Also, the time in which these guitars came out, in the mid 20th century, was a time likely not to be duplicated or seen again in anyone's lifetime for the inventions, guitars, and other things related to music that followed that period. In other words, the phenomena of the time was a rare thing that has not been duplicated in ongoing decades up to the present, and most likely will never be seen again in any form due to how the world has progressed.

The Stradivarius violins may have been made 300 years ago, but they were the instrument of their day, made in a unique and never-able-to-be-duplicated manner by other luthiers after that, just as the 50's LP's were never able to be duplicated after that period.

Take into account how fast the world moves today compared with how slowly it moved 300+ years ago. Inflation and other economic issues did not accelerate as fast as in today's world, thus the rising prices of today's world going up much faster then if this event happened 300 years ago.

I foresee the 50's LP's reaching one million dollars in a fairly short period of time, say in under 20 years. These prices seem ridiculous to you and me as we know that these guitars sold for only $265 40+ years ago. However, they have proven themselves time and again to be superior to current issues by the people that drive the marketplace...the collectors. If they were not seen as superior by those in control of the market price, the price they command would reflect this feeling.


YouTube - Larry DiMarzio's original 1959 Gibson Les Paul®

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/back...adivarius.html

[Eggy]

WOW !!!!!

Larry's guitar is seriously cool !
It's almost the holy grail of guitars imho.

[goby]

I read somewhere that you could buy a 59 Les Paul for $2000 in 1980, or you could buy 5 brand new Gibson Marauders at $400 each. Wonderful if anyone choose the 5 Maraders?

Originally Posted by FLICKOFLASH

1959 Les Paul vs Stradivarius


I foresee the 50's LP's reaching one million dollars in a fairly short period of time, say in under 20 years. These prices seem ridiculous to you and me as we know that these guitars sold for only $265 40+ years ago. However, they have proven themselves time and again to be superior to current issues by the people that drive the marketplace...the collectors. If they were not seen as superior by those in control of the market price, the price they command would reflect this feeling.


YouTube - Larry DiMarzio's original 1959 Gibson Les Paul®

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/back...adivarius.html

[idlewild south]

And you cant use human blood as a colorant.

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by goby

I read somewhere that you could buy a 59 Les Paul for $2000 in 1980, or you could buy 5 brand new Gibson Marauders at $400 each. Wonderful if anyone choose the 5 Maraders?

Maybe in England, with some early punk rockers ?

[FLICKOFLASH]

[JCM223]

With the Stradivarius, they could never be duplicated because of the lumber. In my advanced music theroy class we discussed how they were made with wood that was in water for quite some time then taken up and dried out or something or other! But these instruments have been taken apart built to exact specifications and nothing will re-create it. While the 59' has been replicated. Though I'm not a vinatge expert, I belive most of the acoustic qualities are there in the replicas.

[RCCola]

However, they have proven themselves time and again to be superior to current issues by the people that drive the marketplace...the collectors.

Oh, wait...Burst enthusiasts feel Bursts are superior? News at eleven. And c'mon...every Burst is superior to every new issue...please...

Also, this exact discussion has been going on in a thread on the OPF...

[geochem1st]

The only thing that will enable the LP to reach the $1 million + range is demand. Violins continued to be a main orchestra instrument for the last 300 years, so the demand for excellent violins remained high over that time period. The wealthy investors, who grew up during the 1950's and '60's, associated these guitars with the music and artists they admired as kids and drove up the price. The reason LP's are collectible now is that electic guitars are still being used in popular music. Should music switch from being created by guitars to say synthesizers for any appreciable length of time, then there will be far less demand than we are seeing today. Nobody will want an electic guitar except maybe for novelty sake.

The same thing happened with the collectible automobile market. There was a time you couldn't get a Model T or 30's Willeys for under a kings ransom. Today they are a dime a dozen because interest in them has waned. Even '56 - 57 Chevy's are coming down in price. The generation that collected them are passing.

[Bluesplayer]

i dont think that its imposible for a 50 and early 60 LP to reach 1 million dollars in under 20 years, there are loads of famous artist today that are quite old and own one or a few holy grails, and when the artist has died or dont have much time left he will probebly sell the guitar to som collector and give the money to charity. and becouse the seller is also famous the guitar will easely go for one million+, Eric Claptons Blackie was sold for quite some money and that was a qouple of years ago.

but if we compare strads with early gibsons there is not much to compare, stradivari was fortune to live under a minor iceage which is proven to be the main key to the legendary tone of a strad, but on the other hand gibson may had the finest artisans of that time that skillfully together side by side were building those ledgendary instruments that we today call Gibson.

but why is the les pauls from 52 to early 60 so superior against new gibsons? thats a good question. is it becouse they at first where build all by hand and that they now is built part of machine?

[TVR1977]

In my High School and College days, I used to get the newsletter from Guitar Trader in Red Bank, NJ (famous now for commisioning some of the first 'Burst
replicas). I remember seeing bursts going for $7500 bucks or so in the early 80's, and when they hit the $10k mark it was jawdropping. If I only knew...

Then again, if I had ten Grand back then and invested it in Microsoft, I could probably be able to buy several, even at today's prices.

Oh well. Call me when they perfect a time machine.

[Tuxedo Kaz]

Originally Posted by geochem1st

The only thing that will enable the LP to reach the $1 million + range is demand. Violins continued to be a main orchestra instrument for the last 300 years, so the demand for excellent violins remained high over that time period. The wealthy investors, who grew up during the 1950's and '60's, associated these guitars with the music and artists they admired as kids and drove up the price. The reason LP's are collectible now is that electic guitars are still being used in popular music. Should music switch from being created by guitars to say synthesizers for any appreciable length of time, then there will be far less demand than we are seeing today. Nobody will want an electic guitar except maybe for novelty sake.

The same thing happened with the collectible automobile market. There was a time you couldn't get a Model T or 30's Willeys for under a kings ransom. Today they are a dime a dozen because interest in them has waned. Even '56 - 57 Chevy's are coming down in price. The generation that collected them are passing.

Geo has a very valid point. I think, if anything, the price will plateau soon. The baby boomers are retiring, and the Greatest Generation is practically history (God bless them). The 1959's stock owes largely to players in their more advanced age rather than the youth of today, who, in general, are into other things.

I see the average Burst hitting about 500-600k and then slowly but very steadily dropping into obscurity. All that is great is not to be so unto eternity.

[Cookie-boy]

I often sit and ponder this myself. When I'm gone and my kids have all my stuff, what will it be worth? If I live another 20 years, will there be that demand? What about 30 or 40 years. Who's gonna even have heard of a Burst?

[The baron of norsworthy]

If I recall this was started on the other les paul forum years ago and there are a few parallels. except the metal hadrware!!!!!!

[icsm]

I doubt the burst will drop in value too much. The historics are called 58 59 60 RIs so people will always know the name and Im sure the legend will live on.

[Texas07R8]

I look at it this way. Good old Rock and Roll has been around since the mid-sixties. That's OVER 40 years guys. When you say I dunno what'll be going on in 20-30 years, it's not as long as you think, time has a way of just slipping by without too much notice.

I suspect that the overall guitar market will be quite healthy in the coming years. My grandson is 12, his dad and I are guitar players, he's a guitar player. Little Timmy down the street that's 8 years old can play Eruption just like Eddie, don't think for a moment those future slingers won't carry the torch.

Synths have been around almost as long as rock and roll, I think if they were going to carry the water for a Les Paul plugged into a Marshall stack it would already have happened.

What time can't and won't wash away is the tone, the nature of a humbucker equipped guitar wailing a riff or pounding out a power chord progression. There's something that hooks into the human soul about that sound and I seriously doubt a mere 20-30 years will change that fact one bit.

Having said that, I expect the market to continue to grow, there are only so many "true vintage" guitars, I'm talking 50's and 60's stuff not an 83 model what not. I think Les Pauls will still be the top of the pile and hopefully Gibson and Fender will still be in business.

I was at the Dallas International Guitar Show yesterday and you wold not believe the number of small kids there, I saw a handful of kids 10 and under that were toting a Historic or at least a Standard. The future is not lost. Rock and Roll is here to stay and so are the guitars and amps that created it.

[Tuxedo Kaz]

Originally Posted by icsm

I doubt the burst will drop in value too much. The historics are called 58 59 60 RIs so people will always know the name and Im sure the legend will live on.

The only people I know who even know about Historics are die-hard LP fans.

[lp_junkie]

Most of the younger and casual bedroom players don't know about any of this and it's not really relevant to them in fact to a kid now 1959 is ancient history, there are few examples of incredible LPs from the Holy Grail years, however there are just as many that are only OK.

I think when the current LP collectors start to die off, the price will go down simply because my generation is more nostalgic for early Kramers, and USA made BC Rich and such, the Les Paul was an "old mans" guitar in the early mid 80's. We had fancy trems and wild paint jobs, plus they were pointy. And people my age are starting to have the money to buy frivolous things that we like.

[Tuxedo Kaz]

I think Icsm has a guitar that'll be worth almost as much as the '59s are worth today. Even more if he had a Signature from that year (1989 PRS Custom 24). 86-89 for PRS were GREAT years.

[icsm]

Originally Posted by Tuxedo Kaz

The only people I know who even know about Historics are die-hard LP fans.

Good point, but maybe there will be enough of those die hard fans to keep the price high? At the end of the day, we only need a few hundred rich LP lovers in the world at any one point to keep the market saturated given the rarity of the guitar. There will always be plenty of rockstars + collectors who can afford the incredible price they go for, provided the market doesnt continue to nosedive.

I long for the day the bursts come down in price enough for me to purchase one though

[icsm]

Originally Posted by Tuxedo Kaz

I think Icsm has a guitar that'll be worth almost as much as the '59s are worth today. Even more if he had a Signature from that year (1989 PRS Custom 24). 86-89 for PRS were GREAT years.

It is a great guitar beautifully crafted and carefully designed. It's definitely easier to play.

For it to equal the collectibility of a burst though, it needs to become rarer and be used by a hugely successful band. The Signatures have all been snatched up by collectors so it's unlikely they will be used a geat deal on stage/recordings.

Id quite happily trade my 89Custom for a 59burst though. Anyone?

[Tuxedo Kaz]

Hold onto that '89 Cu24 and you'll get your bargaining chip for a 'Burst soon enough (about 20 years down the line).

[Tuxedo Kaz]

Originally Posted by icsm

It is a great guitar beautifully crafted and carefully designed. It's definitely easier to play.

For it to equal the collectibility of a burst though, it needs to become rarer and be used by a hugely successful band. The Signatures have all been snatched up by collectors so it's unlikely they will be used a geat deal on stage/recordings.

Id quite happily trade my 89Custom for a 59burst though. Anyone?

Oh no, the Signatures are definitely in the hands of some great players who are working hard as we speak. I know several.

[FLICKOFLASH]

Originally Posted by Cookie-boy

I often sit and ponder this myself. When I'm gone and my kids have all my stuff, what will it be worth? If I live another 20 years, will there be that demand? What about 30 or 40 years. Who's gonna even have heard of a Burst?

[kuther]

Originally Posted by lp_junkie

Most of the younger and casual bedroom players don't know about any of this and it's not really relevant to them in fact to a kid now 1959 is ancient history, there are few examples of incredible LPs from the Holy Grail years, however there are just as many that are only OK.

I think when the current LP collectors start to die off, the price will go down simply because my generation is more nostalgic for early Kramers, and USA made BC Rich and such, the Les Paul was an "old mans" guitar in the early mid 80's. We had fancy trems and wild paint jobs, plus they were pointy. And people my age are starting to have the money to buy frivolous things that we like.

There's always a time bomb effect. In the '80s BC Rich, etc. were all the rage and a Gibson LP was DEFINITELY an old man's guitar (although I got a great deal on mine because of it). Then the '80s guitars went out of fashion and at some point they will most likely (if they aren't already) start to come into favor as player/collectors now in their '30s long for the guitar of their youth.

As a teenager in the '80s I was completely unaware of the '50s LPs. Years later, when I started to find out more and more about them I never quite understood the fascination with late '50s Les Pauls until I read Tony Bacon's book Million Dollar Les Paul. That book brilliantly explains the intricate series of historical accidents that led to the mythology of the '59 LP.

Even so though, and even though I think they're gorgeous guitars and I'm sure they sound incredible, they can never speak to ME the way they can to someone older.

Just tonight I was in a guitar shop and I played a RI '57 LP Custom and an '80s Standard. I gotta say the '57 felt weird to me, kind of 'wrong' in that the '80s guitar played just like I remember them from the '80s - it felt 'right' - at least to me. Either way, they were definitely 'different'.

But to me this explains why to someone older who remembers the burst from their youth that they get the same feeling from that and why they insist they're 'better'. They ARE better... at creating the sound of a '50's LP.

And since older collectors seem to be willing to spend ever-increasing amounts to get them they may have passed the point of no return.

I personally think of the '59 LP as a holy grail ONLY because I have been taught to think of it as a holy grail.

The Emporer may not have any clothes, but he's got one heck of a guitar

[rumbling_groover]

Trends change all the time just ask any antiques dealer. I think there will always be a market for them and they will always be expensive.

Remember that tried and tested warning "investments may go up or down"

I don't know where the $450k price tag comes from, Gruhn's Guitars has a couple in the $250k-$275k range. Maybe $450k was their peak in late 2007 early 2008? That's a big difference already. In 20 years who knows anything is possible.

[dazzypig]

59' Les Paul's are bound to have been sold for over $1m us by now anyway especially if you attach a well loved rock stars heritage to an instrument, just because it hasn't been sent to a well known auction house to be catalogued doesn't mean it hasn't happened yet.

I don't really think that the price of Stradivarius violins is due to the necessity for tone. There are many highly skilled makers making instruments of a high enough quality to surpass those old Cremonese makers of the 17c. The market for Strads and bursts is the same. People want it because it is exclusive, never going to be produced again and legendary amongst the people that 'know'. The fact that 'the wood will never be the same, tools have changed, processes have changed' is just another way of justifying this.

...Still would give my right foot for a nice '59 though, hell with all the advancement in prosthetics it wouldn't even be that much of a hardship... although, they just don't make prosthetics like they used too...

[return of the mac]

Originally Posted by lp_junkie

Most of the younger and casual bedroom players don't know about any of this and it's not really relevant to them in fact to a kid now 1959 is ancient history, there are few examples of incredible LPs from the Holy Grail years, however there are just as many that are only OK.

I think when the current LP collectors start to die off, the price will go down simply because my generation is more nostalgic for early Kramers, and USA made BC Rich and such, the Les Paul was an "old mans" guitar in the early mid 80's. We had fancy trems and wild paint jobs, plus they were pointy. And people my age are starting to have the money to buy frivolous things that we like.

That's such a load of crap. Growing up in the '80's everyone wanted a vintage LP. Remember Jimmy Page and Slash?

The baby boomers have been a huge part of the vintage guitar market, but there're many younger folk totally into '50's and '60's guitars. They can't afford them right now , but in years to come might spent their disposable income on a vintage LP , who knows? I sure don't see a rush of folks from my generation running out to buy those "pointy guitars" maybe in Texas.

Oh , one other thing, why dose Gibson and Fender model almost their entire line of guitars based on the designs from the '50's? Must be they really suck bad.

[kuther]

Originally Posted by return of the mac

Growing up in the '80's everyone wanted a vintage LP. Remember Jimmy Page and Slash?

Maybe it was geographic but in NYC up thru the MID '80s (i.e. pre-GNR) no Gibsons were popular with anyone I knew.

I know this because I LOVED LPs and had saved for a long time to buy my new Ebony Standard. The music stores in the area were just giving them away too because they couldn't sell them.

In all my teenage years I never knew anyone else who had a Les Paul.

NOW, I'm not saying people hated them or anything - I mean Ace Frehley played a Paul - I just mean they weren't anyone's dream guitar (except me).

The dream guitars back then in my circles were Charvel, BC Rich, Jackson - basically ANY superstrat or the crazy Warlock or Bich-type guitars.

C'mon it was the '80s - Motley Crue, Van Halen, Poison - excess and glam at it's finest

Oh and don't forget the headless Steinbergers - those were REALLY popular back then. I remember David Gilmour playing one of those.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...Go7glAey_py3DA

[FrankieOliver]

Thanks for this very enlightening discussion. I'd just been contemplating this very subject (not, of course, with Strads in mind) and low, here it is.