The 1959 Les Paul Debate ...What made them So Great ?

[8 1443]

What makes the 50's Les Pauls so special? OLD GROWTH HONDURAS MAHOGANY!!! MICHIGAN MAPLE TOPS, AND OF COURSE THE PICKUPS AND SUPERB HAND CRAFTSMANSHIP. Oh, I forgot the Nitrocellulose Lacquer and the Capacitors and the playability and the durability and well, everything about them!!!!

[8 1443]

While we are on the subject of Vintage Les Pauls, does anybody know where I can get reproduction bridges, electronics, or pickguards for 50's Les Paul Juniors both double cut and single cut?
Thanks in advance!

[BOBBO]

[dennistruckdriver]

Originally Posted by 8 1443

What makes the 50's Les Pauls so special? OLD GROWTH HONDURAS MAHOGANY!!! MICHIGAN MAPLE TOPS, AND OF COURSE THE PICKUPS AND SUPERB HAND CRAFTSMANSHIP. Oh, I forgot the Nitrocellulose Lacquer and the Capacitors and the playability and the durability and well, everything about them!!!!

Yeah, the pickups! I understand that Seymour Duncan bought the pickup winder that was originally used in Kalamazoo and is winding '59's on it now. Could it be some sort of 'ghost in the machine' thing?

[BOBBO]

[single cut 54]

Originally Posted by BOBBO

Hows about ''splashing out'' on that ,Bob?

[Soldano16]

Originally Posted by swankmotee

I had the fortune of becoming good friends with Chris Derrig back in the early 80's when he worked for Atlanta Guitar Works.

I'm a huge replica fan (Monty, Guitar Clinic and Bobburst) and have always lamented that there seems no estimate of how many replicas Chris made. Could you possibly help there? And in almost 15 years of watching for LP replicas, I haven't seen a single Derrig for sale anywhere, anyhow.

In my opinion, an excellent luthier, using the same woods and construction methods will get incredibly close, and superior in the odd case, to the vintage tone.

[Lousyatit]

Originally Posted by swankmotee

I had the fortune of becoming good friends with Chris Derrig back in the early 80's when he worked for Atlanta Guitar Works. He bestowed a ton of inside info on what he felt were the most important factors that made 50's LP's great. I remember a paticular longwinded convo about how he described the "blossom" ( how once you struck the notes above the 12th fret through a cranked Marshall that they would noticably get louder as they continued sustaining) and how he went to great lenghts to recreate that in his guitars. I know this was a continued source of frustration for him because I owned a couple of his 2nd's which he didn't think did the blossom thing very well but they were still excellent sounding because he sourced the correct woods. He also sold me alot of PAF's that were not his favorites or the ones he chose for his guitars and let me tell you that they were still some great ones but his were the choicest and his clones were absolutely top notch. I remember one in paticular that had the most incredible 3D,super dense top. He showed me outside of the store in the sunlight how it had every type of curl,stripe, and flame all superimposed on top of each other and as you turned it in the light you could make out each from the differing angles that the sun hit it! It was mindblowing to say the least and I wonder where it is today because it would be the talk of all LP owners everywhere!! He said he was selling it to someone in the UK for around 25K which back in 82' would have been a huge sum for one of these. The only reason I thought to bring this up on this thread was because every one of his guitars that I played exemplified all the elements that us Sunburst devotees lust after...... ultimate sustain,PAF tone,and incredible vintage looks which are undiniable once you experience it. Even though Chris was a somewhat "shady" character (andI had my own experiences to back that up) he totally understood all the elements that made one great and I was a truly lucky soul to have been around him when he was doing his best work and be schooled in what makes a great vintage/clone Paul great!

My experience with Derrig's guitars was different from yours. I have a friend who knew Chris and owned two different Derrig's at different times. They weren't all that special. If Chris sold one for 25 grand in '82, then there's only one reason that could have possibly accounted for that price.
Soldano, one of the reasons that you haven't seen one come up for sale is because he simply didn't produce that many. I'm not sure how old he was when he died, but he wasn't very old.

[Lousyatit]

.

[shotgunlew]

I do have to agree

Originally Posted by LoKi

They may be nice guitars man, but guys at the time didnt' use them because they were the best *as Fender proved, outselling Gibson in the solid body department for the first 20 years*.

They used them because they were cheap. Yea, they have that rock and roll sound, thick and full of rich harmonics that you don't get with a Tele or a Strat, but I can guarantee nobody was thinking of that at the time.

Having been a gigging/touring/not rich or famous musician for the last 10 years I know what its like. You buy what you can afford and you use it until it falls apart. Details like tonewoods and construction quality aren't as important when you're next meal is going to be after your next show. These guys weren't silver spoon fed rich kids, they were 'sleep on your buddy's couch, spend your last dollar on drugs' musicians.

And none of those guys played 50's Les Pauls exclusively, except maybe Frampton, but he'll still play ANY GUITAR, not just a 50's Paul.

[thefishingline]

Wjhile I have never held in my hands or played a true 59', this Mirabella 52/59' Conversion I have is unbelievably better that the 69' GT I have, the 52' I have and in so many ways.

The weight difefrence, the resonance even when not plugged in...the sound of the PAF's ad the way your hands almost "slip" and and down the neck with the Brazilian board...

I really can not see how there can be any difference between having this 52/59' and the real thing other than the $300k difference...Chris tells me the same thing....almost impossible to tell

[Big John]

Originally Posted by Soldano16

...In my opinion, an excellent luthier, using the same woods and construction methods will get incredibly close, and superior in the odd case, to the vintage tone.

This is right on. I've seen it, heard it, and played it. Also, there's a few underground luthiers that are currently making replicas with modern woods, and they flat out obliterate ANYTHING coming from Gibson's custom shop.

[shotgunlew]

Originally Posted by Big John

This is right on. I've seen it, heard it, and played it. Also, there's a few underground luthiers that are currently making replicas with modern woods, and they flat out obliterate ANYTHING coming from Gibson's custom shop.

There are a quite a few to be honest, we have a few on this board and have seen pics of guitars built by a few of the others.

[banditguitarist1]

I think what makes them great is the mystic that surrounds them, the great players who played them and there gorgeous looks. The tone that every player dreams of from your favorite album as a kid those legendary records like Beano or Led Zeppelin IV. That makes the 59's so indelible in the hearts and minds of music fans every where.

[ieatchocobos]

Well its the sound in my opinion and as everyone says that's got to do with the woods, construction etc.

However I've always assumed from a logic standpoint that anything that's left after 50 years is quality and all the crappy guitars broke down over the years leaving only the best of the 59 line. This adds to the myth as well-made lp's are the best sounding guitars on the planet and since these are guitars that were made so good they're still around after 50 years of course they sound great.

[BOBBO]

Originally Posted by 8 1443

While we are on the subject of Vintage Les Pauls, does anybody know where I can get reproduction bridges, electronics, or pickguards for 50's Les Paul Juniors both double cut and single cut?
Thanks in advance!

I know Pigtail makes the bridges !!! The other stuff might be a bit harder !!

[D4ngerboy]

Originally Posted by loki

its Iconic. Its Not So Much That They Are The Best Players, Best Sounding, Best Anything... Its The Image We All Have In Our Minds When Someone Says 'electric Guitar'. Even People Who Know Nothing About Music Or Instruments In General Know What The Les Paul Is. It Was An Idea, And An Image That Forever Changed Popular Music.

+1

[Roman Rist]

The 1959 Les Paul Debate ...What made them So Great ?

The people that played them. other than that, back in the day, they were just guitars.

[shotgunlew]

Originally Posted by Roman Rist

The 1959 Les Paul Debate ...What made them So Great ?

The people that played them. other than that, back in the day, they were just guitars.

+1

[myspace.com/jessenoah]

ive never played a 59, but i imagine it the wood
for ex i have a wondeful old les paul, and you can compare what the wood looks like on newer models and older models, they may be the same species, but completly different cuts of wood

[Androo]

Originally Posted by Roman Rist

[b]

The people that played them. other than that, back in the day, they were just guitars.

And in the end of the day they are still just guitars. Very good and expensive guitars. But just guitars.

[swankmotee]

Originally Posted by Lousyatit

My experience with Derrig's guitars was different from yours. I have a friend who knew Chris and owned two different Derrig's at different times. They weren't all that special. If Chris sold one for 25 grand in '82, then there's only one reason that could have possibly accounted for that price.
Soldano, one of the reasons that you haven't seen one come up for sale is because he simply didn't produce that many. I'm not sure how old he was when he died, but he wasn't very old.

You're actually very right on all those observations because during the time I knew him he was building each one as a stepping stone to the next project until he got it right and there were very few. I actually bought one of his seconds that had a one piece flame top that was very close to being vintage correct but even Chris showed me the errors in construction (inlay placement was off, some body contours weren't quite right, and other minor issues) that lead to it being a second. Of course for me as a teenager it didn't really matter because the woods were right and it sounded really correct. I fell into the trap of always never being satisfied and wanting next weeks hot ticket item and let it go which was a mistake! What I did watch happen with him was a continual refining of the process until the last few he made were pretty much dead on. Even the Sunburst he made for Charlie Daniels wasn't exactly perfect but it sounded great and CD was very happy with it. The real problem for me with Chris was he was trying to make total counterfeit pieces and sell them as originals which bothered me alot. I respected his talent but couldn't deal with his blatantly lying to customers about these guitars being originals! He was a shady character who definitely died too young but maybe Kharma caught up with him.

[jimmypagefan94]

well, i would think looks would be the first thing you notice... they play pretty well too. IMHO i think the '58 plain top has a better, smoother look to it, but that's just me.

[Lousyatit]

Originally Posted by swankmotee

You're actually very right on all those observations because during the time I knew him he was building each one as a stepping stone to the next project until he got it right and there were very few. I actually bought one of his seconds that had a one piece flame top that was very close to being vintage correct but even Chris showed me the errors in construction (inlay placement was off, some body contours weren't quite right, and other minor issues) that lead to it being a second. Of course for me as a teenager it didn't really matter because the woods were right and it sounded really correct. I fell into the trap of always never being satisfied and wanting next weeks hot ticket item and let it go which was a mistake! What I did watch happen with him was a continual refining of the process until the last few he made were pretty much dead on. Even the Sunburst he made for Charlie Daniels wasn't exactly perfect but it sounded great and CD was very happy with it. The real problem for me with Chris was he was trying to make total counterfeit pieces and sell them as originals which bothered me alot. I respected his talent but couldn't deal with his blatantly lying to customers about these guitars being originals! He was a shady character who definitely died too young but maybe Kharma caught up with him.

I believe that the second Derrig guitar that my friend had was one of the last ones that Chris made. It was ok, but that was it. Something about it was off. I know that Chris's illness imposed a severe financial hardship on him. People in tight places tend to be desperate. I'm not condoning this type of thing. As far as some sort of cosmic retribution for his misdeeds is concerned, if that was the case, his sins could not have been so egregious that he deserved to die from cancer in his thirties.

[brianbzed]

The Michigan maple tops were the key!