The 1959 Les Paul Debate ...What made them So Great ?

[rockinlespaul]

Originally Posted by swankmotee

I had the fortune of becoming good friends with Chris Derrig back in the early 80's when he worked for Atlanta Guitar Works. He bestowed a ton of inside info on what he felt were the most important factors that made 50's LP's great. I remember a paticular longwinded convo about how he described the "blossom" ( how once you struck the notes above the 12th fret through a cranked Marshall that they would noticably get louder as they continued sustaining) and how he went to great lenghts to recreate that in his guitars. I know this was a continued source of frustration for him because I owned a couple of his 2nd's which he didn't think did the blossom thing very well but they were still excellent sounding because he sourced the correct woods. He also sold me alot of PAF's that were not his favorites or the ones he chose for his guitars and let me tell you that they were still some great ones but his were the choicest and his clones were absolutely top notch. I remember one in paticular that had the most incredible 3D,super dense top. He showed me outside of the store in the sunlight how it had every type of curl,stripe, and flame all superimposed on top of each other and as you turned it in the light you could make out each from the differing angles that the sun hit it! It was mindblowing to say the least and I wonder where it is today because it would be the talk of all LP owners everywhere!! He said he was selling it to someone in the UK for around 25K which back in 82' would have been a huge sum for one of these. The only reason I thought to bring this up on this thread was because every one of his guitars that I played exemplified all the elements that us Sunburst devotees lust after...... ultimate sustain,PAF tone,and incredible vintage looks which are undiniable once you experience it. Even though Chris was a somewhat "shady" character (andI had my own experiences to back that up) he totally understood all the elements that made one great and I was a truly lucky soul to have been around him when he was doing his best work and be schooled in what makes a great vintage/clone Paul great!

Great post!

[rockinlespaul]

Originally Posted by BOBBO

That's gotta be Greeny's burst.

[BOBBO]

Originally Posted by rockinlespaul

That's gotta be Greeny's burst.

Yup .. Green Burst !

[ronald_bne]

Originally Posted by Spicoli

Ok, who's this?

this guy is my idol..... lol.

[FLICKOFLASH]

Originally Posted by ronald_bne

this guy is my idol..... lol.

I actually had a Vandenburg signature model Peavey that came with a hand signed certificate by him...no sshh,,,,
YouTube - Adrian Vandenberg Guitar Solo Live Usa 1990

wonder where he is ? last I heard he got struck by a car crossing a street & it messed him up some

YouTube - VANDENBERG [ BURNING HEART ] '04.

[coldsteal2]

Yea his face looks funny now,

he is really great guitarist

[BOBBO]

[hedzeppelin]

When those guys started playing the Les Paul, that's all that was available to them, wasn't it? I mean, they were out of production at the time, I think. So, since THEY say they're better, it MUST be true,
right? Just think, had they not said so, there wouldn't be such a craze for them today...what if Jimmy Page said "You know, I really like the the
1970's model Les Pauls much better than my 1959 LP"....??? We'd all be chasing down 1970's LP's.

And, as with any guitar, the more celebrities that play them, the more demand is created. Personally, the sound of a good LP can't be beat, but
there are other guitars that I prefer. By design, the LP really ain't all that.
It's chunky, heavy and cumbersome, and not all that comfortable.

Page played one because he heard Mike Bloomfield and wanted that sound.
Ace Frehley played one because he heard Page and wanted that sound.

Their popularity has prevailed because WE'VE heard one of the above and want that sound.

Check out this article:

Gibson Les Paul Sunburst Standard guitar info 1958 1959 1960 sun burst vintage value

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by hedzeppelin

When those guys started playing the Les Paul, that's all that was available to them, wasn't it? I mean, they were out of production at the time, I think. So, since THEY say they're better, it MUST be true,
right? Just think, had they not said so, there wouldn't be such a craze for them today...what if Jimmy Page said "You know, I really like the the
1970's model Les Pauls much better than my 1959 LP"....??? We'd all be chasing down 1970's LP's.

And, as with any guitar, the more celebrities that play them, the more demand is created. Personally, the sound of a good LP can't be beat, but
there are other guitars that I prefer. By design, the LP really ain't all that.
It's chunky, heavy and cumbersome, and not all that comfortable.

Page played one because he heard Mike Bloomfield and wanted that sound.
Ace Frehley played one because he heard Page and wanted that sound.

Their popularity has prevailed because WE'VE heard one of the above and want that sound.

Check out this article:

Gibson Les Paul Sunburst Standard guitar info 1958 1959 1960 sun burst vintage value

Clapton, and Bloomfield, who really were two earlier white Blues guys both sorta stumbled on Les Pauls pretty much for similar reasons, in the mid 60s they were economical , People were into Fender sounds for surf and country
Eric couldnt find a LP 56 like Freddy Kings, but he found really a better Les, Similar with Bloomfield but he had the Chicago direct connect to the blues guys . In the mid 60s the demand for Les Pauls was very very low by most . Beck and Keith Richards were also early LP Scorers , Richards got his in the US , not sure where Beck scored his 58 Burst
Actually Page was late getting a Standard compared to others and his first came from Joe Walsh

[Soldano16]

Originally Posted by Spicoli

Ok, who's this?

Derringer.

[Soldano16]

Originally Posted by hedzeppelin

what if Jimmy Page said "You know, I really like the the1970's model Les Pauls much better than my 1959 LP"....??? We'd all be chasing down 1970's LP's.

It's pretty obvious that none of the great burst players moved up to the new LP's and stuck with their real bursts. If they had liked the new guitars they would have used them but that never happened.

The 50's and very eary 60's Gibsons used the finest tonewoods and best construction methods.

The use of hide glue on the early LP's makes a huge contribution to the resonance of those guitars.

I've owned a 56 goldtop and have played a 57 GT, 2 59's, one of which is 9.8 condition, so perfect it's scarey.

I own three replicas, all made with the same tonewoods as the originals and made with hide glue.

replica 1

Putfile - Red Molly lives here

replica 2

Putfile - Red Molly lives here

replica 3

Putfile - Red Molly lives here

[LoKi]

Originally Posted by Soldano16

It's pretty obvious that none of the great burst players moved up to the new LP's and stuck with their real bursts. If they had liked the new guitars they would have used them but that never happened.

The 50's and very eary 60's Gibsons used the finest tonewoods and best construction methods.

The use of hide glue on the early LP's makes a huge contribution to the resonance of those guitars.

I've owned a 56 goldtop and have played a 57 GT, 2 59's, one of which is 9.8 condition, so perfect it's scarey.

I own three replicas, all made with the same tonewoods as the originals and made with hide glue.

replica 1

Putfile - Red Molly lives here

replica 2

Putfile - Red Molly lives here

replica 3

Putfile - Red Molly lives here

They may be nice guitars man, but guys at the time didnt' use them because they were the best *as Fender proved, outselling Gibson in the solid body department for the first 20 years*.

They used them because they were cheap. Yea, they have that rock and roll sound, thick and full of rich harmonics that you don't get with a Tele or a Strat, but I can guarantee nobody was thinking of that at the time.

Having been a gigging/touring/not rich or famous musician for the last 10 years I know what its like. You buy what you can afford and you use it until it falls apart. Details like tonewoods and construction quality aren't as important when you're next meal is going to be after your next show. These guys weren't silver spoon fed rich kids, they were 'sleep on your buddy's couch, spend your last dollar on drugs' musicians.

And none of those guys played 50's Les Pauls exclusively, except maybe Frampton, but he'll still play ANY GUITAR, not just a 50's Paul.

[guitarguru]

Originally Posted by BOBBO

where are these photos taken?

[BOBBO]

Originally Posted by guitarguru

where are these photos taken?

I believe that's the Philly show or Arlington .....

[BOBBO]

As great as vintage LP's are and no more discussion ??

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by BOBBO

As great as vintage LP's are and no more discussion ??

Bobbo, I mean not alot to say about the Holy Grail of guitars, Since we all here admire and basically lust one each one I ever got to play had a magic all its own, the last one I played was rather road beat and was definitly in the catagory of a " Players Burst: tones of extra screw holes, but when I plugged into a early 70s PLexi, I was truly in heaven I kept coasting between early Clapton tones to early Dickey Betts and Duane Allman stuff for the most part

[FlameThrower]

i think the people that played them are what made them so special

[BitchBoy]

Originally Posted by FlameThrower

i think the people that played them are what made them so special

Not that they were so great ???

[chuftybadge]

hey everyone i just found this place i am so glad i did, i think its the innacurate 50's manufacturing that makes bursts so great no two are the same its part of the charm .

im off to look at more pics this place rules

[treddingjr]

Don't forget a couple of other things. Clapton's '60 burst was only five years old when he recorded with John Mayall. In the sixties, it was still relatively new wood. I still hear people say it takes five years before a guitar knows that it is a guitar. That burst was five years old when he recorded with it. That was true of my '01 R8. Something happened to it in '06 but it sounded better. Same guitar tech, same amp, same strings, but there was a 'wow' factor that hadn't been there. Wasn't me. (I still play the same way!)
Recording techniques and recording engineers were different. Stories abound about Hendrix and Clapton fighting engineers to play at the volume that gave them their tone.
Analog tape bleeds from one track to the next. The sound information was not recorded as data. It's not a precise recording medium. It wasn't on or off like the digital world,a one or a zero. Those guys used the room the same way Robert Johnson played into a corner to get the sound.
You used to be able to tell from a record, the black things with holes in the center, if it was a Les Paul or a Strat. I'm pretty sure that records, not CDs, are what the pickup guys model their pickups from, and if you've never listened to Wheels of Fire, or At Fillmore East, or any other great album on a turntable through real speakers with a Macintosh amplifier, you've never heard it.
I am pretty sure it was a magic era, and some things were more magical than others. Some Les Pauls were/are better than others. Whether it was hide glue or the wood or the craftsman no one will ever know. What are the chances that a reversed bobbin like in the Peter Green '58 could happen today?
I've watched the Gibson Historic video narrated by Duane Eddy several times. Those guys are craftsmen. For all the people who go on and on about the current Gibsons and all of the things that are 'wrong' with them, they're Historic Reissues, and a ton of RS or DMC parts can't change that. A Superformance Cobra is nice but a real one is better. Add all of the real cobra parts you want and it's still a Superformance MK III.
In that respect, there's only about 500 Shelby Cobras and only about a hundred of them have the 427 Side Oiler. Sort of like there's only 500 '59 Sunbursts.
I hope I live long enough to see the day when my R8 is worth a bundle. It will be but probably only because of deforestation and the disappearance of tone woods.
I rambled but . . .

[dwagar]

and to keep in mind

Gibson quit producing them because they were pretty poor sellers. They didn't fit the surf craze, didn't fit Rock n Roll, didn't fit country, the jazz guys snubbed solid bodies, blues guys didn't like them. They just didn't have a home.

Then Clapton cranked one through a Marshall (simply because it was the loudest amp they could get at the time). It all changed right there. That defined the sound to come.

If that hadn't happened, no one would really care about LPs.

[Roman Rist]

They were built with good old fashioned "Made in USA" pride.

The attitude nowadays is more "Made it into my USA bank account".

I claim that most LPs were good guitars the day they left the factory.

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by RFR

They were built with good old fashioned "Made in USA" pride.

The attitude nowadays is more "Made it into my USA bank account".

I claim that most LPs were good guitars the day they left the factory.

Sadly something so lacking in todays world. that pride of workmanship for folks on assembly lines IHMO I think many unions helped to kill this off in the latter days, protecting slacking employees and having to fight thru union shop boss's ect