Vintage Buying advice and Help needed !

[gr4ntc]

Like many of you, I cant afford the guitar I would like, so Like many of you I have to compromise, So I was after some advice on buying a Les Paul, from all you vintage users.
My Budget would lead me to either a 52/53, a conversion or a 68/69 Standard.
Its important that’s it’s a player not a collector .
Now where eBay has opened the market up to me, as you will agree there is no substitute to picking the guitar up holding it, feeling the neck and listing to the tone!
I do believe you have to make a connection with a guitar and that isn’t always easy, buying online !!
My first problem is I am in the U.K so actually trying these guitars is not as easy as in the US, if fact almost impossible, so I have to take a leap of faith but in what direction ?
I Have had a few late 70`s Les pauls and to be honest I didn’t like there necks, they for my hand were uncomfortably big and I didn’t like playing them, I have a 1959 Junior which I love the neck on, and I have had a early classic which had a 60`s neck which again I preferred.
So I know early necks are all different but how do they compare, I have read about the baseball bat comparison, many times which leads me to worry about the early 52/53 guitars, However the whole neck subject is so subjective as whats good for me, may not be good for someone else.
So anyone who has tried a variety of Les Pauls can they advise me on how they think the necks compare,
Are early necks that big, like maybe the 70`s neck that I dislike, what are the 68/69 necks like are they slimmer, like the early 60`s necks or starting to increase like the late 70`s necks ? When did the neck profile change ?
Then there is the tone ! ohhhh But that’s another story . So I will try to get the neck right first.

Any comments , advice or direction would be truly appreciated.

Thank you ………………………………..

[Frutiger]

If you're in Kent, take a day trip to London & do all of the vintage guitar shops there are up here & have a chat to some of the guys that work in the stores (Adam & Martin in Vintage & Rare are great).

Vintage & Rare have both a 1952 & a 1954 Gold top in at the moment (they're also got a '60 burst in), I've played the '52 & it's a great guitar (£12k), I haven't seen the '54 though as it's in their Bath store. To this day I haven't seen an original '68 GT in any store here, that could be that I've always missed them but I do think these come up much less.

In my experience 50's necks are nowhere near as big as '50's profile' re-issue necks. I've never played a R8/R9 that I've found comfortable but I've played plenty of real 50's Gibbo's that had great feeling necks (& I own a '52 blonde ES175). I've also got a Heritage 80 standard & this has a similar size neck to my 175 but it's got more shoulder so it's not as comfy.

If you've got a '59 junior then I'd say you've got a good example of what 50's necks are like.

Hope this helps

[thefishingline]

I have been very lucky as I have bought 95% of my guitars on line and all played & felt great and with only a few I sent back for seller's hiding flaws and cracks on me...that's another story.

I had 71' and 73' GT's that sounded like 69' GT's and all had terrific necks..I had a 73' dlx that sounded like an ABB guitar and had a baseball bat neck like the 58' (?) but if you play enough guitars you get used to things on the fly...

I have a 52' with original neck angle and midified trapezes (shortened) and it has P90's and an original 59 burst finish...priced like a conversion but the neck angle is original and I refretted it and now it plays great but is larger around than the other guitar necks...BUT this thing freaking rocks but that has a much larger neck then any other 50's I have.. This will be in the classifieds soon...I think with Lifton case..

I have a 69' dlx GT in the classifieds now that plays like a dream and was the best sounding guitar I ever owned and all my friends and bandmates told me so...until I got the Mirabella Conversions 52/57 and 52/59 with PAF's...

[gr4ntc]

Thanks Guys, this is the feedback I wanted ...
Frutiger, I always wondered how approachable those guys in Denmark street were, I had herd bad stories !! the only problem is as you mention the stock.

[Stowburst]

Originally Posted by gr4ntc

I always wondered how approachable those guys in Denmark street were, I had herd bad stories !!

Denmark Street has got a rep.. the guys I spoke with in V&R were cool (still think some of the stuff is a bit overpriced..but it is London..) but I have had a few run in's with headers that work in MG!

[Frutiger]

Originally Posted by Stowburst

Denmark Street has got a rep.. the guys I spoke with in V&R were cool (still think some of the stuff is a bit overpriced..but it is London..) but I have had a few run in's with headers that work in MG!

This is my experience too.

I've bought quite a few guitars off V&R mainly because they've always treated me well (it is expensive though), I've also found Wunjo to have great, friendly staff & the guy in Angel music's alright also.

Music Ground however is a different kettle of fish, I don't think I've ever had a good experience in there unfortunately, maybe they don't like the look of me?

[Stowburst]

I had a cool time in Andys once, Pete let me play a 52/59 for well over 30mins..

You can't even LOOK at the guitars in MG!! LOL!

[Frutiger]

Originally Posted by Stowburst

I had a cool time in Andys once, Pete let me play a 52/59 for well over 30mins..

You can't even LOOK at the guitars in MG!! LOL!

If only Andy's was still there, they were a good bunch too. That's where MG now is, they moved in a couple of weeks ago...

[JimmyAce2006]

Originally Posted by gr4ntc

Like many of you, I cant afford the guitar I would like, so Like many of you I have to compromise, So I was after some advice on buying a Les Paul, from all you vintage users.
My Budget would lead me to either a 52/53, a conversion or a 68/69 Standard.
Its important that’s it’s a player not a collector .
Now where eBay has opened the market up to me, as you will agree there is no substitute to picking the guitar up holding it, feeling the neck and listing to the tone!
I do believe you have to make a connection with a guitar and that isn’t always easy, buying online !!
My first problem is I am in the U.K so actually trying these guitars is not as easy as in the US, if fact almost impossible, so I have to take a leap of faith but in what direction ?
I Have had a few late 70`s Les pauls and to be honest I didn’t like there necks, they for my hand were uncomfortably big and I didn’t like playing them, I have a 1959 Junior which I love the neck on, and I have had a early classic which had a 60`s neck which again I preferred.
So I know early necks are all different but how do they compare, I have read about the baseball bat comparison, many times which leads me to worry about the early 52/53 guitars, However the whole neck subject is so subjective as whats good for me, may not be good for someone else.
So anyone who has tried a variety of Les Pauls can they advise me on how they think the necks compare,
Are early necks that big, like maybe the 70`s neck that I dislike, what are the 68/69 necks like are they slimmer, like the early 60`s necks or starting to increase like the late 70`s necks ? When did the neck profile change ?
Then there is the tone ! ohhhh But that’s another story . So I will try to get the neck right first.

Any comments , advice or direction would be truly appreciated.

Thank you ………………………………..

LP Customs all had similar necks from mid 1969-1979; medium profile. Can't speak for GTs / Standards during that time (they switched to Deluxes in late 69 until 74/76 when the Standard came back & they made Deluxe & Standard).

Based on your options, I would get a 68-69 GT with a one piece neck & long tenon. Great playing guitars. Got to deal with the P90 noise though. Never seen an original GT Standard / Deluxe with a long tenon and factory mini humbuckers.

[stratoburst]

If you can afford a 52 or 68 my advise would be to factor in a air ticket and go and look in the US!! I have been going to Denmark St since the late 60's and these days have a apartment within walking distance to Denmark st. I still go there when in London maybe 3 or 4 times a year and have seen the gradual decline over the years. The stock is extremley poor and most of the staff equally as bad. I have witnessed on a number of occasions how they have looked down their noses at clients. There is perhaps 2 good shops and they know who they are. The street is usually covered in rubbish the shop interiors not much better. I would look for a smaller vintage dealer who is passionate about guitars and owns his own stock. I could go on but my advise is to try, play feel the vibe before parting with big bucks!!! I'll go down tomorrow morning and take a pic of Denmark St. for the forums benefit!! Denmark St needs to lift it's game!!!

[gr4ntc]

Thanks for your responses, So many people have said this about the Denmark street shops, I guess your right. Its a shame as at one stage it was comparable to the U.S
Seams its not so good for us U.K Buyers ......!

[Big_dawg]

2nd what stratoburst said.... Altohugh another vote for vintage and rare, they let me 'play' (i was too scared to actually try and even strum it!!) with their left handed 59 Vos for a couple of minutes, nice guys in there....

Forsyths sometimes have some good stuff :
(Vintage and Second hand guitars at Forsyth Brothers Manchester)

and ive just found these guys:

http://www.vintageguitars.org.uk/index.php

But to be honest if you can afford an apartment in the west end head over to the US and guitar loft that a lot of guys have got stuff, or even better one of the auctions Bobbo posts pictures of....

(or you could sell the West End apartment and buy back Peter Green's 59)

[stratoburst]

I'm not the one buying. I recomended that gr4ntc go to the US to buy. Ok here's a shot of Denmark St for those that don't know the area. Check the rubbish in the street!!
Used to be a great place. Maybe it'll come right again one day. lets hope so!![IMG][/IMG]

[Big_dawg]

oops getting my posters mixed up..!

Thats a fair description of Denmark street unfortunately. There are still a few good things goign on down there - the blues club, the street festival (although cant find details of this year's) and one or 2 decent shops. Its a real shame this street has so much history and I reckon in 10 years it'll pretty much be gone, I seem to recall watching a programme a year or so ago saying that it was being bought up by developers....

[Frutiger]

Originally Posted by stratoburst

The stock is extremley poor and most of the staff equally as bad. I have witnessed on a number of occasions how they have looked down their noses at clients. There is perhaps 2 good shops and they know who they are.

This imo is the main thing that lets the street down, looking down your nose at people is wrong full stop but if you're going to do it at least have the stock to back it up, I've got a better collection of guitars at home than most of these shops have in at the moment & some of them are meant to be amongst the best vintage dealers in the country!

Apart from V&R who have some nice pieces in (the before mentioned Goldtops, a couple of amazing ES-5's & a pre-war Super 400!) the overall quality of the 'vintage' guitars on the street is poor at best & has been going down year-on-year for as long as I've lived in the city (about 8 years now). I don't know if that's due to people holding onto their guitars due to the economic downturn thus reducing the amount of good guitars on the market but it's nowhere near as good as it once was.

[thefishingline]

I have updatesd the pics for you in the 69' GT LP Deluxe...Has to go thread in the members classifieds

gr4ntc, you should check out Rick Zigmond at New Kings Road Vintage Guitar Emporium in Chelsea or Andy Hacket & James Stevenson at Angel Music on Denmark Street. They are the only guys I'd personally recommend in London. If you don't mind travelling North, we may have something of interest to you? feel free to email me if you think we can help.

[gr4ntc]

Well " thank you" for you advice, support and collective wisdom,
to update everyone .......
I actually took statobursts advice, and did a little looking a little worrying and managed to combine a short holiday and buying trip !!!
I actually bought a early 69. in need of some work but its a beautiful guitar,
and sounds amazing....
my Take on the neck situation was, even with a trip to the US unless you can play all the alternatives, its still difficult, and after making the decision to visit you can only ever get what's available and what you can see at the time !

otherwise you will spend what you save chasing guitars all over...

however as a comparison, I like the neck on this 69 a lot, its wider and slightly shallower than my 59 Jr, has Flat and fast Fretboard, but the neck is thicker than the classic at the headstock, but so much better than the Seventies LP, I had.

One downside to buying abroad is how to get the guitar home, If I ship it would cost more, So I took the opportunity to take the guitar on my flight home. I didn't have a lot of luggage so why not.
why not... I spent the flight to the U. K worrying was it on board, was it safe, where would it go for collection ? would it end up on the belt ... no surely not.
anyway I frustratingly got seated at the rear of the aircraft, had to wait to get off the plane, sprint through to passport control off to baggage collection, got there looking for my fragile package, no not on the side looked around to see the baggage belt monster spit my beloved 69 on to the belt ready to do the rounds including target practise for every subsequent laden holiday bag to fly into ... oh boy.

Why does this happen I said it was a guitar and need to be carried off and collected as fragile goods !!**!"##O''##~

Anyway all ended well the guitar was ok.

But I am still not sure the best way to buy your dream guitar on a reasonable budget.

[JimmyAce2006]

got pics?

Originally Posted by gr4ntc

Well " thank you" for you advice, support and collective wisdom,
to update everyone .......
I actually took statobursts advice, and did a little looking a little worrying and managed to combine a short holiday and buying trip !!!
I actually bought a early 69. in need of some work but its a beautiful guitar,
and sounds amazing....
my Take on the neck situation was, even with a trip to the US unless you can play all the alternatives, its still difficult, and after making the decision to visit you can only ever get what's available and what you can see at the time !

otherwise you will spend what you save chasing guitars all over...

however as a comparison, I like the neck on this 69 a lot, its wider and slightly shallower than my 59 Jr, has Flat and fast Fretboard, but the neck is thicker than the classic at the headstock, but so much better than the Seventies LP, I had.

One downside to buying abroad is how to get the guitar home, If I ship it would cost more, So I took the opportunity to take the guitar on my flight home. I didn't have a lot of luggage so why not.
why not... I spent the flight to the U. K worrying was it on board, was it safe, where would it go for collection ? would it end up on the belt ... no surely not.
anyway I frustratingly got seated at the rear of the aircraft, had to wait to get off the plane, sprint through to passport control off to baggage collection, got there looking for my fragile package, no not on the side looked around to see the baggage belt monster spit my beloved 69 on to the belt ready to do the rounds including target practise for every subsequent laden holiday bag to fly into ... oh boy.

Why does this happen I said it was a guitar and need to be carried off and collected as fragile goods !!**!"##O''##~

Anyway all ended well the guitar was ok.

But I am still not sure the best way to buy your dream guitar on a reasonable budget.

[Big_dawg]

Originally Posted by gr4ntc

Well " thank you" for you advice, support and collective wisdom,
to update everyone .......
I actually took statobursts advice, and did a little looking a little worrying and managed to combine a short holiday and buying trip !!!
I actually bought a early 69. in need of some work but its a beautiful guitar,
and sounds amazing....
my Take on the neck situation was, even with a trip to the US unless you can play all the alternatives, its still difficult, and after making the decision to visit you can only ever get what's available and what you can see at the time !

otherwise you will spend what you save chasing guitars all over...

however as a comparison, I like the neck on this 69 a lot, its wider and slightly shallower than my 59 Jr, has Flat and fast Fretboard, but the neck is thicker than the classic at the headstock, but so much better than the Seventies LP, I had.

One downside to buying abroad is how to get the guitar home, If I ship it would cost more, So I took the opportunity to take the guitar on my flight home. I didn't have a lot of luggage so why not.
why not... I spent the flight to the U. K worrying was it on board, was it safe, where would it go for collection ? would it end up on the belt ... no surely not.
anyway I frustratingly got seated at the rear of the aircraft, had to wait to get off the plane, sprint through to passport control off to baggage collection, got there looking for my fragile package, no not on the side looked around to see the baggage belt monster spit my beloved 69 on to the belt ready to do the rounds including target practise for every subsequent laden holiday bag to fly into ... oh boy.

Why does this happen I said it was a guitar and need to be carried off and collected as fragile goods !!**!"##O''##~

Anyway all ended well the guitar was ok.

But I am still not sure the best way to buy your dream guitar on a reasonable budget.

you should have bought it its own ticket & seat...