Capacitor Shoot-Out! It All Ends Here!

[kernelofwisdom]

Debate over! These controlled environment clips conducted at KOW studios of various caps should settle all speculation about the effects of capacitors on tone. J/K!!

Anyway, I took a real '50's Bee, a Reissue Bee, a Luxe Grey Tiger, a Jensen PIO, a Sprague Vitamin Q, an Orange whatever and a Brown whatever and put them head to head. I tested them tone pot open, closed, and for the most part on 6. Never, except sweeping the pot to closed or from closed to open, did I hit 2.4. Clips are about a minute each.



Here you go ---> Capacitor Shoot-Out!

If you want to see anonymous samples only, followed by answer key, go here:

http://www.kernelofwisdom.com/02-10/capacitor2.html

[Raz59]

Hah...didn't hear much difference between caps in this test.
I tried to listen carefully on the chord sequence (when pot was on 6?), to see if I could spot a difference in terms of timbre or treble content, but couldn't tell anything evident about it...

Which is surprising, listening again to VastHorizon's test, it seems like 50's wiring and modern wiring really have a difference in terms of treble.

Which cap did you like best, kernel?

[kernelofwisdom]

Like most of the times I do this, I end up just trying to do the test right and figure I'll hear them later. :-D

However, that orange one I got from radio shack seemed pretty alive at the time, to my surprise. I bought it on a whim when I was there for something else. The brown one, whatever it is, seemed the darkest. The rest didn't seem much different to me in the bits that I played. I'm not too surprised by that really.

Sorry you listened to that much to only not hear much difference, although that result should be as valid as any other. But sometimes people hear things I can't discern so I don't write off that there is a difference of merit just because I don't hear it.

Of course, playing different things might bring out other differences.

And yep once I finished playing the two open chords and varying the tone, I set it on 6 for the chord sequence and the notes that followed. I figured that would engage the cap and magnify any differences without dive-bombing it, but though the tone was darkened, I didn't hear big differences myself.

[ledlover01]

i liked the Jenson alot, and the 50s Bee too.They both sounded really close

[Raz59]

Yeah, speaking of Orange Drops - I'm assuming the orange one you got is a polypropylene Sprague Orange Drop - someone posted an article in the capacitor thread that reported about the differences of wiring an Orange Drop in one direction and then in another AND it seemed like there was a difference!
These capacitors don't really have polarities, so this article surprised me with what it said.

Can you test this out too or is the shop already closed?

[benjammin420]

Originally Posted by Raz59

Yeah, speaking of Orange Drops - I'm assuming the orange one you got is a polypropylene Sprague Orange Drop - someone posted an article in the capacitor thread that reported about the differences of wiring an Orange Drop in one direction and then in another AND it seemed like there was a difference!
These capacitors don't really have polarities, so this article surprised me with what it said.

Can you test this out too or is the shop already closed?

thats very interesting. only with Orange Drops? I don't think I ever considered that when replacing caps, maybe Im missing out on something

[kernelofwisdom]

Originally Posted by Raz59

Yeah, speaking of Orange Drops - I'm assuming the orange one you got is a polypropylene Sprague Orange Drop - someone posted an article in the capacitor thread that reported about the differences of wiring an Orange Drop in one direction and then in another AND it seemed like there was a difference!
These capacitors don't really have polarities, so this article surprised me with what it said.

Can you test this out too or is the shop already closed?

It's closed tonight but I left the rig intact. The brown one was the last one so it's still in there so surgery is still scheduled. I'll put that orange one in one way and then the other. That'd be amazing to tell a difference!! I'll run it through the mill a bit to give it the best chance of telling.

[Raz59]

Originally Posted by benjammin420

thats very interesting. only with Orange Drops? I don't think I ever considered that when replacing caps, maybe Im missing out on something

The experiment involved Orange Drops, so I can't really say that it only happens on these types of caps, but here:


Premier Guitar article

Read it for yourself. Interesting, to say the least.

[kernelofwisdom]

Originally Posted by Raz59

The experiment involved Orange Drops, so I can't really say that it only happens on these types of caps, but here:


Premier Guitar article

Read it for yourself. Interesting, to say the least.

Looking forward to his next installment. I will definitely give it a shot tomorrow!

[River]

So I get to see what I'm about to listen to before I listen to it? Then decide which I think is superior?

[Raz59]

Originally Posted by kernelofwisdom

Looking forward to his next installment. I will definitely give it a shot tomorrow!

Oh, the July issue already came out.

Premier Guitar - July 2010

Originally Posted by Dirk Wacker

In a passive guitar circuit, there is no low-impedance side because we use the tone cap as a bypass cap to ground, so the outside foil should be connected to the grounded side in this case. The outside foil will act as a shield against electric field coupling into the capacitor, so you want it to have the lowest impedance return path to ground. With this rule in mind and all the caps connected this way, a tube amp will be much less susceptible to interference from fluorescent lighting and hum, oscillations or frequency-response peaks due to unwanted feedback from nearby signals within the amp.

Thanks again kernel!

[kingedb]

thanks kernel! that was cool, but now my head is spinning!

[kernelofwisdom]

Originally Posted by River

So I get to see what I'm about to listen to before I listen to it? Then decide which I think is superior?

Indeed! The honest mind should be able to tell! EDIT: I couldn't stand it. You're right, there should be the option. It's added above and below. :-)

I may put up a page that doesn't tell what's what. I don't think having listened before would make any difference in that regard. To me, they were all about even, except the brown one. Maybe I had it backwards!

Looking forward to trying the orange drop deal. I wonder if I should do it with single coils and put a florescent light in the room to maximize chatter in the circuit.

[kernelofwisdom]

Originally Posted by Raz59

Oh, the July issue already came out.

Premier Guitar - July 2010



Thanks again kernel!

I give that guy a lot of credit for tracking that down. That was a lot of work!

[kernelofwisdom]

Anonymous samples if you want to see what you think/like before knowing what's what:

Capacitor Anonymous Test

[capt_goodvibes]

You forgot Alessandro Capacitors, when only the best will do

Alessandro Capacitors

New reproduction of the tone cap used in early to mid-50's. Manufactured with the same materials and hand made techniques as done 50+ years ago. A vast tonal improvement over the tone caps being used for the last 40 years. Restore your vintage guitar or improve the sound of your current guitar.

sol guitars
Sydney Australia

[snaredrum]

yay, i guessed the '50s bee and the orange drop!

[Raz59]

Bump.

So I listened again to the chord sequence, but this time it was the blind test; I opened a notepad and wrote in each letter in terms of preference.

I ranked it in terms of treble smoothness, and surprise surprise: the Orange Drop was first, followed by a very close Vitamin Q. Worthy mention is the 50's Bee.
Makes ya wonder, right?

[5F6-A]

interesting

[Quill]

Originally Posted by kernelofwisdom

Anonymous samples if you want to see what you think/like before knowing what's what:

Capacitor Anonymous Test

Terrific set-up, KoW. So much work! I can give a bit of time to this. I agree with River, and appreciate the blind listen.

I not only heard a terrific difference from one cap to the next, I heard a noticeable difference from track to track in the sound of the guitar with the controls wide open. Could be due to variations in picking (a huge variable, but it sounds pretty tightly controlled, no-one could do better, I think) or to the effect of the wiring. I know from my own experiments that the wiring is a huge part of that balance, even with everything on 10. But everyone who cares to pay attention to these things knows this. The best way to eliminate the "player" variable from track to track would be to record one dry track, taken straight from the pickups, and then re-amp that track for each capacitor, running it through the same wiring harness, changing the cap each time. But - how crazy do we want to drive ourselves?

Speaking of which, I got all the information I needed in the first twenty seconds of each clip, and didn't listen past that. Too hard to remember, one to the next. Lots of going back and forth, a good three or four careful listens to each.

Here's the notes I took, as I was listening. Haven't yet looked at which cap was which, as I like different caps for different things and am not concerned with old or new - plus, as with all of us, I'll adjust my playing to the sound set-up, based on what I want at the time.

"X" -- sound with control open (0-5sec; 12-16sec) --- sound with tone down (7-10sec; 17-20sec)


A -- some impediment --- drops to a bright middle; angles - some details, maybe a little bland.

B -- clear --- drops to a dark middle; smooth surface, sound feels polished, but still interesting.

C -- clear, like B --- drops to an even-sounding middle; deep and soft - interesting, good for overall tone shaping, a "practical" cap.

D -- bright, very good --- drops to a dark low; cloudy and far away, I like this effect, the large drop in the highs would be great for shaping phrases with "wah" effects.

E -- brittle, funny in the mids --- drops to a dark middle, with a weird, nasal-sounding spike; something odd in the lower mids, don't care for this one, only one that's made me cringe a bit. Throw this one away!

F -- bright, like D --- drops to a dark middle, but with some detail up high; sounds a bit the way a dark room with an open skylight feels, smooth through the middle with some atmosphere up top.

G -- some impediment, like A --- deep and soft, very similar to C, I'd use this one for overall tone shaping, a great practical cap

More thoughts on D: l'd have fun with this one; this is the kind of thing I reach for when I'm either improvising in free-form or digging into a nasty rock groove, where I want to play chords or notes with the effect of a sharp, bright light that comes burning out of a dark fog. Pretty cool sounding cap, to these ears.

More thoughts on F: I like this one a lot, it'd be great for recording the guitar by itself, or where there's a lot of space in the track.

I also am saying that my thoughts about them are concerned with the way the sounds of each cap sits, to me, in that guitar, with those pickups, whatever they are. I wouldn't use your results to pick one, necessarily, for one of my guitars. I'd want to try them myself. They're caps, they're cheap, or they should be. It's not a big deal.

[Quill]

HAH! So much fun - just looked at the "answers" and cross-checked my notes - absolutely confirmed, I mean freakin' nailed, everything I thought, and totally honest and completely blind! What a fun test, thanks, Kernel. Really, really great.

[kernelofwisdom]

Originally Posted by Quill

HAH! So much fun - just looked at the "answers" and cross-checked my notes - absolutely confirmed, I mean freakin' nailed, everything I thought, and totally honest and completely blind! What a fun test, thanks, Kernel. Really, really great.

Fantastic notes. Pretty interesting that it appears the caps are a material contributor to the tone!


I agree it'd be nice to have a standard recording to put through to eliminate the player variable.

Thanks for the feedback Quill and everyone. I'm learning from that!

[kernelofwisdom]

Originally Posted by Raz59

Yeah, speaking of Orange Drops - I'm assuming the orange one you got is a polypropylene Sprague Orange Drop - someone posted an article in the capacitor thread that reported about the differences of wiring an Orange Drop in one direction and then in another AND it seemed like there was a difference!
These capacitors don't really have polarities, so this article surprised me with what it said.

Can you test this out too or is the shop already closed?

"Polarity" test now included on the bottom of the original page.

Having finished it all, it's been fun going back to listen to it, but a lot more fun reading the comments. As usual, I'm impressed by the knowledge people bring out about these things, both in what they discern listening as well as technical knowledge.

It seems like it would make sense, if you're a tone searching guy, to have a small arsenal of caps around to tweak your tone if you're into that. Certainly pretty easy to do; I think I've proven that if nothing else!

[kernelofwisdom]

Originally Posted by Quill

-snip-

I also am saying that my thoughts about them are concerned with the way the sounds of each cap sits, to me, in that guitar, with those pickups, whatever they are. I wouldn't use your results to pick one, necessarily, for one of my guitars. I'd want to try them myself. They're caps, they're cheap, or they should be. It's not a big deal.

Completely agree! If somebody is worked up about whether they like their cap or just wondering if you'd hear a difference in person, give changing them out a whirl. Only takes a couple of minutes (and by couple I mean a few, each ).

[River]

Thanks a lot for doing this, Kernel. My ears are simply not that good, but after Quill explains what he's hearing, I can hear it. So I guess my ears ARE good, buy my brain can't keep up. And I really don't think that's power of suggestion. More like having a true expert guide you through a fine art exhibit.

[Laservampire]

Originally Posted by capt_goodvibes

You forgot Alessandro Capacitors, when only the best will do

sol guitars
Sydney Australia

$55 PER cap?!

$55 each for pots?!?!

$340 for a Les Paul harness?

Makes me think their caps are made from paper-in-snake-oil...

[LtKojak]

Originally Posted by Laservampire

$55 PER cap?!

$55 each for pots?!?!

$340 for a Les Paul harness?

Makes me think their caps are made from paper-in-snake-oil...

These are target marketed to the snobbiest of cork-sniffers... don't forget their main target market are HI-FI freaks, which are by their own definition UBERMENSCH (supermen), capable of hearing everything even dogs can't!

[capt_goodvibes]

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt_goodvibes View Post
You forgot Alessandro Capacitors, when only the best will do

sol guitars
Sydney Australia
$55 PER cap?!

$55 each for pots?!?!

$340 for a Les Paul harness?

Makes me think their caps are made from paper-in-snake-oil..



Quote:
Originally Posted by Laservampire View Post
$55 PER cap?!

$55 each for pots?!?!

$340 for a Les Paul harness?

Makes me think their caps are made from paper-in-snake-oil...
These are target marketed to the snobbiest of cork-sniffers... don't forget their main target market are HI-FI freaks, which are by their own definition UBERMENSCH (supermen), capable of hearing everything even dogs can't!


I wouldnt even begin to make a comment until you've at least tried them, I can understand you wouldnt put them in a lower end, lower priced Guitar, but I'm sure if you've just spent 5K plus on a Guitar you'd want the best quality, best sounding Pots, Caps, wiring in it. JMO

[NoStatic]

Kernel- first, thanks for doing this.

When you did the test with a real set up and real moving air, were the differences between the caps greater/more apparent than when when you listened back to recorded samples? Do you think this is a big consideration for listeners who are listening to your recordings across the web, maybe through little PC speakers?

[kernelofwisdom]

Originally Posted by NoStatic

Kernel- first, thanks for doing this.

When you did the test with a real set up and real moving air, were the differences between the caps greater/more apparent than when when you listened back to recorded samples? Do you think this is a big consideration for listeners who are listening to your recordings across the web, maybe through little PC speakers?

I think the translation of being in person to a recording played back over the internet is possibly large enough to invalidate attempts to discern small differences via the internet. Certainly over small PC speakers.

However, I record at a fairly high bit rate and it seems people with good systems (earphones probably) can pick out what happened during the recording. Certainly if they have a good system and the differences are more than subtle they should come through. The other big drawback is deciding what to play and how to play it. I figure simple chords and notes clean, but that may not be the best test. And, as Quill noted, no matter how hard I try, I play it differently each time.

I cannot say a lot on the issue because I've come to accept that I don't have the hearing or mental capability (or a combination) to discern things others can, and I've seen that in enough areas to think that's real. Disappointing, of course, that I'm missing out on some stuff, but not surprising with the battering I've put my ears through.

Also, when I do these, I'm busy soldering and trying to make sure I'm duplicating the settings etc., so I don't focus on trying to tell one thing from another as I do it. The exception to that was the Orange Drop which I liked while doing it, and which I left in the guitar after doing the "polarity" test.

While imperfect, I figure the more datapoints available the better, as we are still saturated with more opinions than data, though some certain opinions are probably worth more than some data!

The reason I did this was the other day I made a comment in a thread that I thought you could make a greater change in your tone by changing pickups than changing caps. Then I thought that was not an opinion I had tested at all so I figured I'd test it.

In the back of my mind, if there were a super cap and a dud cap, then I'd test those in conjunction with a good set of pickups and an alleged dud set doing the various combinations and presenting them blind to see what changed tone the most. But, I haven't done that yet.