The capacitor thread.

[dynabite]

Originally Posted by dennistruckdriver

simpler to understand form

Why didn't you mention . . Think of it as the oil filter in your truck, it filters out treble like dirt

[dennistruckdriver]

We've already been there.

[dynabite]

Try this from Jonesy's link -
How does a Capacitor Work

[scosystems]

I have been offered these caps recently, has anbody here used them? or have any comments on them?

They are being sold as .022UF @ 200V VISHAY SPRAGUE FILM & FOIL AXIAL CAPS

I would be interested as they are being offered very cheap!

Thanks in advance guys.

[jonesy]

As far as I know those are Film and Foil vs Paper In Oil, and are not as desirable for Guitar Tone as PIO caps like the Q's etc.

[jason_mazzy]

jonesy why the big diff between the aluminum and paper ones?

[jonesy]

Paper in Oil just seems to give warmer Tone, Orange drops are probably sweeter than those Vishay Foil caps, they may be a bit trebly?

[jason_mazzy]

is there a technical or scientific reason?

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by jason_mazzy

is there a technical or scientific reason?

Mojo

[jason_mazzy]

ahhh the elusive mojo. damn i shoulda known lol

[Splattle101]

I've seen some tests that show that PIO caps have the most linear response of the common types. The polypropylene came next. The curve for the cermic caps showed a lot of hysteresis (i.e., it was curved). That might be a contributing factor.

The other thing is precision. The + or - value on caps varies a lot. The ceramics are usually + or - 20%. So if you've got a 0.02 uF cap, that 20% range means it could be 0.016 to 0.024. The 0.016 cap would be quite bright. I've read of some ceramics having tolerances as high as 80%!!!!

I don't know if either or both of these things is part of what makes PIOs sound nicer.

[jonesy]

IMO It's the mineral oil that makes them sound good, The Bee's, Black Beauties, & Q's all have it

[Armitage]

You guys DO realize that capacitors break down with age... faster if they're NOT in use... so you have no idea what you're getting with NOS caps... and measuring it isn't very helpful with a meter because they swing at different frequencies and at different voltages... and Different voltages DO make a difference with tone caps because they react at different frequencies at different voltages to...

You gotta scope'm.

[johnbeloe]

Originally Posted by Armitage

You guys DO realize that capacitors break down with age... faster if they're NOT in use... so you have no idea what you're getting with NOS caps... and measuring it isn't very helpful with a meter because they swing at different frequencies and at different voltages... and Different voltages DO make a difference with tone caps because they react at different frequencies at different voltages to...

You gotta scope'm.

IMO I don't think different voltages make any noticeable difference - I've used vintage bees at .022 @ 400 and .022 @ 600 and they sounded IDENTICAL in everyway and reacted the same

[dwagar]

I think the only thing to be concerned about is drift in old caps, especially pulls. The ones I've checked have been within range, generally to the high side - eg an .015 @20% would read about .018, but I've read about some that are way off.

I've noticed no difference with voltage either, other than the space problem with some guitars.

A scope? nah, this isn't a science experiment. The BEST test bed is your ear with them in your guitar.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by dwagar

I think the only thing to be concerned about is drift in old caps, especially pulls. The ones I've checked have been within range, generally to the high side - eg an .015 @20% would read about .018, but I've read about some that are way off.

I've noticed no difference with voltage either, other than the space problem with some guitars.

A scope? nah, this isn't a science experiment. The BEST test bed is your ear with them in your guitar.

Yeah like Dwagar said no scopey needed, I use my bench meter to check for actual reading and then use my ear to check to see if the Mojo is there

[FF_Pedals]

The little caps that Dennistruckdriver posted are multi-layer ceramics. I've tried a lot of these caps in different pedals and have been very pleased with the tone I can get out of them.

I think there is some confusion between the rated maximum operating voltage of the cap and the voltage in the particular application. As the values drift with time I'm assuming the electric permeability of the capacitor's dielectric changes over time and the rate and frequency dependence of this change might be influenced by the voltage the capacitor has been subjected to over the years.

I would have to agree that the best way to get a nice NOS capacitor would be to test it at DC and then drop in your guitar for a test ride.

Putting an agreed upon "awesome" tone capacitor on a scope to try to replicate its frequency response with mass produced components might be a better way to replace the radial ceramics I pulled out of my LP. This all seems like a lot of hearsay (no pun intended) without actually seeing measurements but I doubt this thread would exist if there wasn't some real meat in this pie.

I got 2 more bumblebees. Labeled 0.015uF, read around 0.016uF.

[eddie_bowers]

Originally Posted by jonesy

IMO It's the mineral oil that makes them sound good, The Bee's, Black Beauties, & Q's all have it

That makes me wonder if the MojoTone "Vitamin T" is worth a try.
It's polyester film in mineral oil.

What the heck. I'm going to order some to try out. They are cheap.

[rick13]

I recently tried 7 or so caps with the alligator clip method. I settled on the Hovland for use in my Tele, as the one that sounded best for my setup. There is a tonal difference between caps.
Rick

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by dwagar

what are "F"?

Sprague Filmite Polypropylene

[jason_mazzy]

yo im at the house if ya wanna call! lol

[scosystems]

Well I got hold of some of the Vishay Sprague film and foil capacitors - which I am seriously loving! Not to everyones taste - but hey ho.

[jason_mazzy]

r u available brother?

[FF_Pedals]

Originally Posted by scosystems

Well I got hold of some of the Vishay Sprague film and foil capacitors - which I am seriously loving! Not to everyones taste - but hey ho.

I dig it!

[FF_Pedals]

I just found some experimental curves of different capacitance constructions: The "Sound" of Capacitors

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by FF_Pedals

I just found some experimental curves of different capacitance constructions: The "Sound" of Capacitors

Interesting that the ceramic disc caps have a curve, an most of the other caps taper evenly.

[Splattle101]

Originally Posted by FF_Pedals

I just found some experimental curves of different capacitance constructions: The "Sound" of Capacitors

Thank you! Those were the tests I was talking about in my post above.

You can see the hysteresis in the curve for the ceramic very clearly. That's what I was wondering about: whether than non-linear response is what we hear in ceramics.

On the other hand, the silver mica is nice and linear, and that's not a cap I'd put in a guitar. But it does have a place in certain parts of an amp.

It's complicated. My head hurts.

[jonesy]

Yeah it also says they used a 100K load for testing, guitars are more often 250K or 500K and also an additional capacitor was run in series to correct phase??? Not exactly the same conditions as a guitar volume and tone circuit, but I found the curve on the ceramics very interesting all the same



Quote from link: Technical Note

The "current monitor" resistor used for all curves was 100 ohms. The "integrator" was passive, using a 100k and 0.047, 0.1, or 0.47 uF capacitors depending on the frequency and level. The "X" input to the scope was fed with an additional series capacitor and adjusted for exactly "90 degrees" phase shift (typically ran 0.01u into the 10 meg scope probe resistance) to reduce systemic errors.

[FF_Pedals]

Oh, the test conditions are far from what these capacitors would see in a guitar. The author of the link mentions he used the test setup to amplify the measurements for plotting purposes so the results are easier to see visually. I would think that the most important factor for us would be the curve of the dielectric "constant" over the audio bandwidth. I've read that paper in oil is the most linear, I haven't seen those graphs though.

[jonesy]

CAPACITOR EVALUATION: TONE FACTORY JAPANESE VITAMIN Q's

I just got in some New Vitamin Q Tone caps from Allparts. They are Oil and Paper TONE FACTORY Vitamin Q's made by TOICHI out of Japan. Evidently they hold they licensing for the Vitamin Q trademark now.

These TONE FACTORY Vitamin Qs caps (List $13.50 each) are not to be confused with the Cheaper Vitamin T caps (List $3.50 each) and are based off the original Sprague vitamin Q formula. I had heard that much of the US held companies had sold out to the Pacific rim and that seems to be true.

These caps I have are .022 uf and are rated at 630v, one end is glass sealed (Blue) and they are a nice short Fat Tone cap. On my bench meter they read 19.70 nf and 19.80 nf so they are around .020-ish uf or MFD. I am going to try these out in my Studio LP and see what they sound like. I will post my results later this weekend after I have had time to try them out.

Just wondering if anybody else had tried these caps out yet? .