Vintage Bees and 50's Wiring Tone Test/Comparison

[Gabriel]

Assuming that everything else is the same, it's a very noticeable difference. The second clip sounds fatter, less harsh and more saturated.

[snaredrum]

i just switched out a .022 orange drop for a .022 Bee and there's a WORLD of difference.

well, maybe not a world, but a continent

[5F6-A]

haha

you are following the right path, my friend!

[DAllenPickups]

Bee's win hands down! I like the 400v but 200v will do they are a vast improvement over stock caps. Full, warm, rounded but retain highs.
David Allen

[tazzboy]

I went with .015/.022 Vitamin Q and I am glad I did.

[AngryHatter]

Any two capacitors, no matter the construction will function exactly the same. Doesn't matter if it's a ceramic disc or pio...if they are both 22 micro farads they will sound identical.
You think electrons care?

[Gabriel]

Originally Posted by AngryHatter

Any two capacitors, no matter the construction will function exactly the same. Doesn't matter if it's a ceramic disc or pio...if they are both 22 micro farads they will sound identical.
You think electrons care?

Sure...

[Jeffguy]

Wow dude, nice choice on the wiring/caps. the first one sounded a bit harsh, but with the beez it got smoother, more open, and a better tone IMO. Good Work!

[freefrog]

Originally Posted by AngryHatter

Any two capacitors, no matter the construction will function exactly the same. Doesn't matter if it's a ceramic disc or pio...if they are both 22 micro farads they will sound identical.
You think electrons care?

At the same capacitance, caps made with various dielectric materials won't have the same K (dissipation) factor.
And it changes the tone. I say it as someone who has been sure during decades that it doesn't matter... I was wrong.

[Gabriel]

Just borrow a couple of different caps with same capacitance and aligator clips and see for your self. Even tape your amp and stompboxes settings.

My vitamin Q's cost me less than 20 and on a guitar that's costed me over 1300 euros in overall it's just the tip of the iceberg.

[Electric_Sunshine]

So crunchy!

[roknfnrol]

Has anyone tried the Mojotone PIO caps?

Mojo Capacitors » Mojotone Vitamin T (Oil Filled) .022uF @ 600V

[onehippie]

a Jonesy review could be interesting

[takeitslow]

Hi to all,

Sorry if you already talked about it (I've searched the forum but couldn't find!) but as I want to upgrade the electronics of my 2010 Gibs R0 with buying the RS premium vintage short shaft kit, there's one with Paper & Oil Jensen Caps and another one with Luxe bumblebee caps.
Which kit should I buy? And why? For I see a small difference in price but what about tone?
Thanks for your replies.

[martin6string]

Luxe Bumblebee Repros are simply new old stock paper in oil capacitors in a very well done jacket. I'm not sure what NOS caps Donovan is using currently, but for a good while, he used NOS Russian K40Y9's.

Luxe's are the best reproductions available, IMHO.

[takeitslow]

Thanks for your answer Martin6string.
When I was about to order, I realised that the Luxe Bumblebee kit has two .022 caps while the Jensen kit has one .022 and one .015 cap.
So, as I read that a lot of players use the .015 for the neck... What to do?

[Wraptail]

I wouldn't waste any $$$ on Luxes... unless the looks/outer wrapper is really important to you. Sounds like you don't even know exactly what kind of cap your getting from Luxe anyway.

For the same amount of $ you can get some American made Vitamin Qs AND some Russian PIO caps; or and/other old American made PIO caps.

Then you can swap around to see what you like.

You can also run caps in parallel to double the value - ie 2 .01 caps in parallel = .022.
-.01s are typically cheaper as they are deemed less desirable.

From *my experience* different caps of the same measured value sound and feel different.

And don't forget, some highly regarded guitar tone has involved ceramic disc caps (ex:Clapton's 335 & SG from his Cream days had them OEM) so I wouldn't just write those off either.

[jonesy]

What Rude Dog said, don't waste money on repro caps when you can get the real thing.
New Old Stock USA PIO & Ceramic disc caps...word

[takeitslow]

Hi to all and thanks for your answers.
I've read a lot about RS Guitarworks vintage kit (with CTS superpots) but also discovered a real nice guy (the one from above, that has the Mojo) with 550K audio pots.
What are the changes brought by superpots, comparing to "550 audio"? Why should some people buy the RS superpots and some other just the "simple" Jonesy 550 pots? I dunno what to choose...
I'm not a huge user of guitar pots but what I dislike about the pots in my R0 is that when the volume pots are on 0, there's no sound (that's great!!!). Then, you just begin to hear a whisper at 2. It becomes soflty louder on 3.5. Then, nothing up to 5 where it's louder. Nothing at 6 but gets louder at 7. Then louder at 8 and 9 and just a slight difference from 9 to 10. In fact, shoul I be rude, it just like having a volume from 10 to 6 and then it's so light a change that it's almost useless to have the numbers back to 0...
For the tone pots, it goes like: 10, no big difference, a real change at 6, slight difference, 4,..., 2,...,0...
I guess that it's the pots and not the fake Gibson Bees that create that, no? Otherwise, I just could get some PIO caps...
I've ordered some Seymours APH2 for I also found my bridge burstbucker too harsh and now, I'm just hesitating for the upgrading pots...

[martin6string]

The CTS550K's have a very responsive audio taper. When wired 50's style, they roll off evenly, so if you want to clean up your sound, you can roll the volumes back without your sound getting muddy.

As far as Luxe goes, they are in fact the most accurate reproductions of the real deal. They are all paper in oil and very high quality.

[martin6string]

Originally Posted by takeitslow

Thanks for your answer Martin6string.
When I was about to order, I realised that the Luxe Bumblebee kit has two .022 caps while the Jensen kit has one .022 and one .015 cap.
So, as I read that a lot of players use the .015 for the neck... What to do?

You can get a harness with Luxe Bee's in .015/.022 or .022/.022. Just depends how much highs you want to roll off the neck position.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by martin6string

As far as Luxe goes, they are in fact the most accurate reproductions of the real deal. They are all paper in oil and very high quality.

The Luxe caps look nice and the Russian caps they use inside the wrapper are paper in oil, but IMO they just don't have that "Woody Tone" like the real 1950's Bees do. Tone wise the Sprague (maker of the original Bees) and Cornell Dublier pio .022's come a lot closer YMMV

[martin6string]

Originally Posted by jonesy

The Luxe caps look nice and the Russian caps they use inside the wrapper are paper in oil, but IMO they just don't have that "Woody Tone" like the real 1950's Bees do. Tone wise the Sprague (maker of the original Bees) and Cornell Dublier pio .022's come a lot closer YMMV

Yes, I agree, Dave. I love the original Bee's. I really like the K40Y-9s and have them in some of my guitars, but the 50's Bee's are definitely a step above

[Wraptail]

Originally Posted by martin6string

As far as Luxe goes, they are in fact the most accurate reproductions of the real deal. They are all paper in oil and very high quality.

I really wish people would stop referring to Luxe caps as "reproductions" because they are not.

They're existing caps (that you can get MUCH cheaper else where) that are repackaged. There's a reproduction of the outer casing and that's it.

From what I've seen in photos of the ones dissected they can be Russian PIO or something else like General Instruments PIO.
So you don't even know what you're getting.

And the ones I've seen are 200v, not 400v as the original Bees.

[martin6string]

Originally Posted by Rude Dog

I really wish people would stop referring to Luxe caps as "reproductions" because they are not.

They're existing caps (that you can get MUCH cheaper else where) that are repackaged. There's a reproduction of the outer casing and that's it.

From what I've seen in photos of the ones dissected they can be Russian PIO or something else like General Instruments PIO.
So you don't even know what you're getting.

And the ones I've seen are 200v, not 400v as the original Bees.

The are reproductions, both by virtue of the fact that non Mylar Bees were paper in oil and by cosmetics. What's the issue?

[takeitslow]

Hi,

I'd like to thank you all for I met a real nice guy, David-Jonesy from whom I'm getting a 50's kit with 550K pots and PIO caps (.022 for bridge & .015 or .018 for neck). Never met someone answering so nicely and quickly to all questions... Great man!!!
Can hardly wait to have that stuff in the R0 with its new Seymours APH2 to see (hear in fact) how it sound...

[takeitslow]

Hello,

Here's the kit I just got from David today


BV 574 BT 546
NV 573 NT 559
.022 Sprague Hyrel for bridge
.018 Cornell Dublier for neck

Aerovox .022 and Russian .015 not soldered...

What do you think? Looks great, no?
Jonesy is a great man!!!!!
Hope it'll sound good in the R0 with the APH2 Slash I also got three days ago...

[southpaw219]

Did you mention where you got your bees? I didn't see it. If not, could you let us know? Thanks.

Edit: Nevermind; I got to the post where you link to the thread where the bees were sold. I think I'd rather cut off my own hands than pay $50 for a capacitor, no matter whether it sounds like God's own voice or not.

[roknfnrol]

I got some of these, they sound really good. However, I should have purchased the real thing from Jonesy.

[jimbob137]

I have an 09 137classic with P90's in it. Are bumblebees a good upgrade with p90's?