Like tone? In depth capacitor comparison:

[lesspaul]

My friend John over at planet z has begun a very systematic audio/video comparison of how capacitors affect tone.
Crazy Tone Thing: planet z

Part 1 is up, where he compares how different cap materials (paper in oil, ceramic, polypropylene, etc) affect tone.
In part 2, he'll compare how changing the value of the cap affects tone.

Worth a look if you're wondering about caps and tone, as I was...

[diceman]

This is one of the coolest guitar related videos I've ever watched. I'm about 1/2 way through it.

I'm surprised at how LITTLE variation there is between caps, to be completely honest.

Part of that is my crappy computer speakers I'm sure.

[Deguello]

i have seen his vid's on youtube...He has a good one on pots too...

[5F6-A]

brilliant stuff!!!

[Jimbo]

I dont think you see much with the volume or tone wide open, although there is some. But its when you chnage the value of the pots, like in closed position and so forth, good video.

[NoStatic]

Originally Posted by diceman

This is one of the coolest guitar related videos I've ever watched. I'm about 1/2 way through it.

I'm surprised at how LITTLE variation there is between caps, to be completely honest.

Part of that is my crappy computer speakers I'm sure.

Thats because 98% of whats written about about caps in this context is utter nonsense. There is proably a whole TV series in myth busting this stuff.

But he better not start on top wrapping.

[Perrow]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

I dont think you see much with the volume or tone wide open, although there is some. But its when you chnage the value of the pots, like in closed position and so forth, good video.

That might be why he varied the tone pot setting

The volume pot should not affect the tone of the guitar, if that's not the case with your guitar I suggest you take it to a guitar tech. It might however affect the tone (word used in a general sense here) you get out of the amp, but that was not what he tried to show, so I'd say this is as good a test as you can do without some seriously advanced set up.

[Nightrain]

Sounds like just the thing I need. Not sure exactly how pots n caps affect sound.

Thanks!

[SlyStrat]

To me the Russian PIO was the best. It has a top and bottom end the others don't. It retains that tone throughout. I could especially hear it in the 12th fret single note "chords".

[jonesy]

Well made and lot's of effort put into that video and very professionally done for sure but there are many variables that are still not accounted for. Here are some of my initial thoughts...

1. Even though the caps tested were all rated .022 no actual readings of the caps were measured and I am sure they ranged between .018-.023-ish

2. I own that same amp and it has 11 different amp models and they all change the EQ of the amp. I would have liked to seen what amp model he was using, and where the gain, volume, treble mid and bass was set because changing any of those will increase or decrease certain frequencies making caps sound differently.

3. That semi-hollw body guitar is fairly loud unplugged and I bet their was some of it's Tone being picked up over that mic since he was only 3-4' away from the amp making some of the clips sound similar? When Tone was rolled off down to 4 and then to 1 quite a bit of highs were still coming through on the clips my guitars don't sound like that when Tone is rolled off that far with .022's they are more muffled.

4. Also caps will produce a different Tone with other pickups depending on their frequency range. Other guitars would yield slightly different results

5. I would have like to heard a couple of other paper in oil caps like a vitamin Q or a Real Bumble Bee also for comparison. Also no Ceramic disc caps were tested and that is what comes in all the Gibsons and older Fenders.

6. I would have also like to heard some crunch clips with the same capacitors being tested as well. Distortion will bring out the best and the worst characteristics in Capacitors.

7. Was guitar wired up modern or 50's style I am not sure if I heard him say that?

Still well done and I give him credit for his efforts, just saying.

[kernelofwisdom]

Outstanding effort and information.

[MrRhoads]

The Russian Pio cap which was most likely a K40 and the Vintage Grey Fat one were my favourites in that test

[Jason]

Originally Posted by jonesy

6. I would have also like to heard some crunch clips with the same capacitors being tested as well. Distortion will bring out the best and the worst characteristics in Capacitors.

This was exactly what I was thinking. I have limited experience, but I can vouch for the fact that distortion makes the differences between caps very pronounced.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by Jason

This was exactly what I was thinking. I have limited experience, but I can vouch for the fact that distortion makes the differences between caps very pronounced.

You should be able to do some capacitor comparison of your own pretty soon, yours should be arriving any day now

[eddie_bowers]

This was really well done, but being one who went through the same kind of test on my own I can't hear in the video the differences I can CLEARLY hear with my test. I don't know if it's the quality of the recording, or the amp or what.

One thing I noticed doing my tests was that it was hard to judge two caps at the same pot setting because they had different response curves. One may have generally the same bass and treble ballance at 3 as another has a 5.

[dennistruckdriver]

Originally Posted by NoStatic

....But he better not start on top wrapping.

The trucker actually 'LOL'ed!

[dwagar]

Originally Posted by eddie_bowers

This was really well done, but being one who went through the same kind of test on my own I can't hear in the video the differences I can CLEARLY hear with my test. I don't know if it's the quality of the recording, or the amp or what.

Same with me. When I'm testing caps I like to dig in single notes on various places on the neck. I like to check full roll off again at various spots. Very different than was presented here. The most obvious to me is PIO compared to about anything else.

And then again, there are differences that are so subtle, I can hear them on a test, but I doubt they'd show up on a recording. Or even matter to me a few minutes later. An example of that would be caps of the same type, eg PIOs. While vintage Bees are my favorite caps, others (VitQ, Russian) are so close in tone (IMO), so much easier to get, and cheaper, I'm quite happy using them.

[lesspaul]

maybe our computer speakers are introducing some differences too. To my ears, the orange drops (polypropylene) and the russian PIO stood out the most (the former was brighter, the latter was warmer) when compared to the stock cap his Riviera came with. (The other caps I thought didnt make much of a difference).

The difference was subtle, but I suppose a cap swap might be appropriate for some folks once you've picked out amp and pups. Changing the Cap's value might make a bigger impact (waiting for his part 2 to be posted for that).

[NoStatic]

Originally Posted by dennistruckdriver

The trucker actually 'LOL'ed!

Well done, you. Tomorrow, finger painting.

[5F6-A]

My guess about that youtube video is that if the wires used along with the crocodile clips are rubbish ( and they might well be by the look of them ) any subtle improvement would be lost.

[lesspaul]

hey guys, Part 2 of John's video is up: Crazy Tone Thing 2: The Sequel

[Raz59]

Originally Posted by lesspaul

hey guys, Part 2 of John's video is up: Crazy Tone Thing 2: The Sequel

This guy should be payed for his work, I just saw it and it was extremely educative. Thanks for sharing lesspaul.

[lesspaul]

John has posted a follow up, now including examples with distortion.

Tone Caps Follow-up planet z

[Raz59]

Originally Posted by lesspaul

John has posted a follow up, now including examples with distortion.

Tone Caps Follow-up planet z

Thanks for the heads up.

This video doesn't really contain the distorted examples, that's for part 4 (EDIT: Wait...part 4 is up, sorry about that). And it looks like John covered up all of jonesy's points, except for half of number 5 - testing a real bee and a vit Q - I hope that's good enough.

I'm kind of eager to hear the distorted examples. Every major detail seems to be covered; since every setting is constant throughout the recording, any variation can be attributed to the capacitors and, like the knowledgeable here said, with some distortion in the mix the "best" and "worst" will be highlighted!

And it's a double blind test! Will it be THE definite test?

[lesspaul]

Originally Posted by Raz59

Thanks for the heads up.

This video doesn't really contain the distorted examples, that's for part 4 (EDIT: Wait...part 4 is up, sorry about that).

np The distorted samples start just before the 3 minute mark in part 4.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by Raz59

Thanks for the heads up.

This video doesn't really contain the distorted examples, that's for part 4 (EDIT: Wait...part 4 is up, sorry about that). And it looks like John covered up all of jonesy's points, except for half of number 5 - testing a real bee and a vit Q - I hope that's good enough.

I
And it's a double blind test! Will it be THE definite test?

Considering all I and many players use are the Vintage Bees, and NOS Vitamin Q type pio caps, I would say that is fairly critical factor in the Tone equation.

Those caps are what most people regard as high end Quality Tone caps so not testing them long with the Orange drops and other caps seems a little odd to me. Maybe there is a reason they are not included in the test?

[Indyclone]

It looks like he was just testing different cap materials... and probably on a budget...

[jonesy]

Uh, yeah Ok.

[cynic79]

My initial listen through my crappy work speakers showed some very minor differences between the different cap materials, but nothing earth shattering EXCEPT with the ceramic cap. That was noticeably brighter and harsher sounding than any of the other caps.

I perceived some subtle differences between the other caps, but not so much as to radically change the tone. I'll check again with my Bose computer speakers at home and see if I can perceive any other differences.

At this point, I'm not really surprised by the results. The differences I've heard in cap materials have been very subtle, and are not really something a listener is going to notice in a full band setting or on a recording. They are more noticeable in person, particularly to the player. It's somewhat akin to the recent thread comparing recorded samples of tube amps and modelers: the difference in sound on a recording is not terribly evident, but the player may hear the difference.

Also, the ceramic cap stunk!

[tele52]

I was skeptical of the pots and cap magic theory. But after replacing the stock pots and caps in my 2000 Gary Moore to CTS audio taper and NOS paper and oil caps. .022 and .015, I'm amazed at the difference. It has me rethinking my whole pickup changing process. I will do wiring before PUP changes.