De-Bunking Myths About Capacitors

[5F6-A]

good to know...

[5F6-A]

brilliant thread....

Originally Posted by SoloDallas

Thanks very much Jonesy.
I had bought today real late 50s BumbleBees for two of my 50s LP conversions.
.

you are going to love them!!

[SoloDallas]

Originally Posted by 5F6-A

you are going to love them!!

Thank you... I sure hope so
I'm being told that they could bring my guitars even closer to real burst tone

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by SoloDallas

Thanks very much Jonesy.
I had bought today real late 50s BumbleBees for two of my 50s LP conversions.
Had NO idea about many of things you explained. Grateful.

Thank you.

Your welcome, and congrats nice score on those 50's Bees.

And Be sure to post up some sound clips for us to listen to if you can?

[jonesy]

I guess only the true hard core Tone freaks hang out in this section

[SoloDallas]

Originally Posted by jonesy

Your welcome, and congrats nice score on those 50's Bees.

And Be sure to post up some sound clips for us to listen to if you can?

Thank you
Oh definitely yes.
Here's my Lentz without caps yet:

You Tube

You Tube

Please be patient when watching, full tone of this guitar comes after a while.
Will post equivalent stuff upon installation!

[NoStatic]

Originally Posted by Drudeboy

I have compared PIO to ceramic, and the difference does not exist. (unless of course you want it to) I would challenge anybody here to a blindfold A/B test.

Dont be saying that. Next it will be that top wrapping doesnt do anything either.

[Cygnus X1]

Thanks for posting this jonesy.
What is your opinion of the really old wax covered caps?

I have a bunch I have pulled out of 40's-50's radios and whatnot.
Couldn't bring myself to throw them away.

[Drudeboy]

Originally Posted by NoStatic

Dont be saying that. Next it will be that top wrapping doesnt do anything either.

It doesn't, but don't tell the sheeple

[NoStatic]

Fake bumble bees? Jesus wept.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by SoloDallas

Thank you
Oh definitely yes.
Here's my Lentz without caps yet:



Please be patient when watching, full tone of this guitar comes after a while.
Will post equivalent stuff upon installation!

I Love the Blues, great job.

I liked the way you started out mellow, built it up and then really turned it on at the end. You may notice more of a woody Tone with those Bees and a little of that top end harshness will disappear. Still very nice Tone with that set-up. But you need to trim those strings off at the headstock bro

[NoStatic]

Myth #5 R9's Come with Real Bumble Bee Capacitors so there is no need for me to replace them, so why should I?

No, your R9 came with "Fake" Bumble Bee caps that contain a cheap little poly film capacitor buried on the inside of the pretty little plastic black case with stripes. Gibson does not use Real Bumble Bee caps in their reissues, and they are not even paper in oil capacitors. Luxe Bees are actually Russian K40y-9 paper in oil caps and have a very similar Tone to the Original Bees.

[/COLOR][/B][/QUOTE]

About the fake bumble bees- not disputing what you say, Ive heard it before and believe what you say is correct. I was looking at a new R7 recently and the shop was telling me what a tone monster it was and how it had original spec 50’s wiring and bumble bee caps. So clearly Gibson is out there selling this to its retailers, on onto customers.

If find this intriguing, the fake bumble bees thing, as a business decision. Here is Gibson’s high end (and high margin) line, which trades on its “historical” authenticity. They are selling these guitars to people to whom this matters- some don’t care ofcourse- but there are whole communities like this one who do.

Why would Gibson CS take the decision to source and fit a fake bumble bee? Especially when its not so hard to find NOS, or even a new “replica” and these components are worth cents or dollars to Gibson. It very dishonest and really damages the “cred” of these guitars and Gibson. It would be more honest of them to say that after their own research, this or that new type capacitor and pot set up best replicates the characteristics of the original Bumble Bees, rather than produce a fake intended to pass off as the real thing.

If I were Gibson CS, to differentiate these guitars, increase the tone wanker factor and perceived value of the premium - high margin- product, if I would be selling R7-R0s with presentation box containing half a dozen different cap sets “exclusively sourced by Gibson CS for historical accuracy”, with tasting notes on each cap set and inviting owners to have their dealer (warranty issues no doubt) swap the caps at the owners pleasure for the life of their ownership. That would really appeal to the people who can hear differences in these things, and further differentiate the Custom Shop offering from the garden variety Gibson.

The shops would love it- it brings high value customers (they’ve shelled out '000's on a Gibson Custom Shop guitar after all) back into the shop and every retailer will tell you that “frequency of visit x customer relationship = increased sales.”

Poor form Gibson Custom Shop. IMO. YMMV.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by Cygnus X1

Thanks for posting this jonesy.
What is your opinion of the really old wax covered caps?

I have a bunch I have pulled out of 40's-50's radios and whatnot.
Couldn't bring myself to throw them away.

Well I love the way that they Look and have quite a few Sprague and Ajax stashed away in my tackle box of odds and ends, but most of the ones I have, have drifted dark and read way higher than there original values. I actually have styled some of my own relic caps after the old wax an paper caps. They have there own sound but not like the newer paper in oil caps.

Here is my take on the old wax & paper caps, metal cased paper in oil on the inside and I make up my own labels and wax pot the ends.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by NoStatic

Myth #5 R9's Come with Real Bumble Bee Capacitors so there is no need for me to replace them, so why should I?

No, your R9 came with "Fake" Bumble Bee caps that contain a cheap little poly film capacitor buried on the inside of the pretty little plastic black case with stripes. Gibson does not use Real Bumble Bee caps in their reissues, and they are not even paper in oil capacitors. Luxe Bees are actually Russian K40y-9 paper in oil caps and have a very similar Tone to the Original Bees.

[/COLOR][/B]

About the fake bumble bees- not disputing what you say, Ive heard it before and believe what you say is correct. I was looking at a new R7 recently and the shop was telling me what a tone monster it was and how it had original spec 50’s wiring and bumble bee caps. So clearly Gibson is out there selling this to its retailers, on onto customers.

<snip>

If I were Gibson CS, to differentiate these guitars, increase the tone wanker factor and perceived value of the premium - high margin- product, if I would be selling R7-R0s with presentation box containing half a dozen different cap sets “exclusively sourced by Gibson CS for historical accuracy”, with tasting notes on each cap set and inviting owners to have their dealer (warranty issues no doubt) swap the caps at the owners pleasure for the life of their ownership. That would really appeal to the people who can hear differences in these things, and further differentiate the Custom Shop offering from the garden variety Gibson.

The shops would love it- it brings high value customers (they’ve shelled out '000's on a Gibson Custom Shop guitar after all) back into the shop and every retailer will tell you that “frequency of visit x customer relationship = increased sales.”

Poor form Gibson Custom Shop. IMO. YMMV.[/QUOTE]


There is actually an X-ray photo of one of the Fakes Bees posted around here at MLPF somewhere showing whats inside. And I think there is another pic of one broken open revealing the poly film cap that is on the inside of the Bee case. I think MLPF member 5F6-A knows where they are posted if I am not mistaken?

I am not sure why Gibson puts 5 cent caps in there $3,000-$5,000 guitars? I would think that they could at least offer some good Luxe paper in Oil Bee replicas as an option for those Players who really care about Tone?

[NoStatic]

Originally Posted by jonesy

I am not sure why Gibson puts 5 cent caps in there $3,000-$5,000 guitars? I would think that they could at least offer some good Luxe paper in Oil Bee replicas as an option for those Players who really care about Tone? [/COLOR][/B]

yeah well-tone aside- if only for the credibility of their "Historic" offerings.
Fake Bumblebees says a lot. Its pretty cynical.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by Jason

The only polarized caps I've seen are electrolytics, and I haven't heard of anybody using those in a guitar.

I am pretty sure that these "boutique" Tone caps are polarized...and they are paper in oil

[Quill]

I'm still not worn out enough on this topic to not bother to post my little capacitor story. I recently compared guitars with a friend. We both have good LP's, each with a nice, clear acoustic tone and lots of rich harmonics. Turns out we both have Skatterbrane pickups; I have a lower-wind set with an A5 in the neck and an A2 bridge, while his set has a bit hotter wind to them, and both A2s. With all the controls wide open, the sound in both guitars was comparable on the top end, mine a bit clearer and snappier, with his a bit stronger in the mids. We had a couple different amps going, tried both guitars through both amps.

Both guitars sounded just great - until I rolled back the tone control on his bridge pickup. It was embarrassing. I have the stock cap in mine, actually a pretty good cap; what they were putting in R9s before the fake bumblebees came in. Pretty clear, warm sounding. And I've always liked it. But his sounded amazing - totally different character and feel, way better than mine. The sound seemed to open up in the middle, spread out and fill the room, as the pot was rolled back. Mine just kinda got less bright, in comparison. I didn't expect this, and didn't know what was going on at all, until he showed me.

A set of '60s PIO bumblebees pulled out of an old organ. The values were a bit different from mine, but that doesn't explain the character of the roll-off, only the slightly different range. It was pretty exciting to be surprised like that - to really know I can hear the difference. And had anyone else been in the room with us, they'd know, too.

I'll take a capacitor blind test anytime. I'd prefer to be in the room with the guitar and amp, for the test, but if that's not practical, I'm up for anything else.

[jonesy]

Nice post Quill, thanks for sharing your experience with Tone caps

[Jason]

Perhaps I'll have to buy some PIOs and see if I can get the difference to show up on a before/after recording.

I've upgraded to mylar Orange Drops before, and I felt like I heard a change in the tone, but it was nothing extreme (if it wasn't a placebo effect, of course).

[Quill]

Thanks, Jonesy. I also thank you for going out there and finding the parts that you find, and making them available. Your efforts are valuable to me.

Jason, I've played with Orange Drops, too, and they sounded nice. Really warm and deep in my guitar, but didn't have the "spread" of the old bumblebees that I tried to describe.

You never know how it's going to work out; I have those exact Angela caps in my 335 - right down to the aluminum foil - and I really don't care for them; in that guitar, which is old and acoustically really strong and loud - is that relevant? I dunno! - they sound kind of tubby. I thought they'd be great. Too bad they're in the 335, jeez I'm tired of rewiring that damn thing. Sometimes I feel like letting the bloody harness hang out the F-hole and just play it like that ... actually, next time I'm going to go through my entire cap collection with that guitar, with the pots on a template, outside the guitar, until I find a set that fits with its quirks. If I can stand to do it - and my patience with that old battle-axe is near its end - I'll record what I find out, as well.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by Jason

Perhaps I'll have to buy some PIOs and see if I can get the difference to show up on a before/after recording.

I've upgraded to mylar Orange Drops before, and I felt like I heard a change in the tone, but it was nothing extreme (if it wasn't a placebo effect, of course).

The little red and green chiclet caps are Mylar and the Orange drops are Polypropylene

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by Quill

Thanks, Jonesy. I also thank you for going out there and finding the parts that you find, and making them available. Your efforts are valuable to me.

Jason, I've played with Orange Drops, too, and they sounded nice. Really warm and deep in my guitar, but didn't have the "spread" of the old bumblebees that I tried to describe.

You never know how it's going to work out; I have those exact Angela caps in my 335 - right down to the aluminum foil - and I really don't care for them; in that guitar, which is old and acoustically really strong and loud - is that relevant? I dunno! - they sound kind of tubby. I thought they'd be great. Too bad they're in the 335, jeez I'm tired of rewiring that damn thing. Sometimes I feel like letting the bloody harness hang out the F-hole and just play it like that ... actually, next time I'm going to go through my entire cap collection with that guitar, with the pots on a template, outside the guitar, until I find a set that fits with its quirks. If I can stand to do it - and my patience with that old battle-axe is near its end - I'll record what I find out, as well.

Yeah I do not care for some of the "Boutique" aluminum foil caps, prefer the NOS Q's and Russian much better for Tone and price etc. I just posted those to show an example of polarized Tone caps for guitar.

There's a reason why they call it the F-Hole Quill, but I'm sure you already know that

[VDeuce]

The "polarity" markings on non-electrolytic caps indicate the outer foil side of the cap, I believe.

Some people suggest putting this end toward the higher impedance side, IIRC.

It would not at all surprise me to hear a difference if the orientation were reversed. Easiest way to test it would be by wiring the cap to a switch and testing...

[Sinster]

I just purchased some .015 uF's Russians PIO caps from fleabay.. we will see..

[Sinster]

Originally Posted by Cygnus X1

Thanks for posting this jonesy.
What is your opinion of the really old wax covered caps?

I have a bunch I have pulled out of 40's-50's radios and whatnot.
Couldn't bring myself to throw them away.

You could always donate them to me

j/k I still haven't used all the ones you have sent me.

[Goldtop75]

Great post Jonesy!!! I've added it to my blog, if you don't mind.

Originally Posted by jonesy

Many electronic experts will tell you that there is no scientific explanation of why paper in oil capacitors will give you better Tone when used in a guitar circuit. But it is a well known fact in the guitar community that paper in oil will be warmer, smoother and have more "Sparkle" than ceramic disc, mylar or polypropylene capacitors. The original Bumble Bees and Black Beauties were paper in oil and thought of by many to be the "Holy Grail" of Tone as far as capacitors go.

Actually, there IS proof to be had, and an explanation to be gleamed.

Tone, or rather, the way it is perceived, is nothing more than an interpretation of electrical current flow by the amplifier, or any other transducer. The amplifier mainly interprets the signal, and the speaker reproduces the sound according to the nature of that signal.

There are various qualities of such a signal that affects the resultant sound. Voltage levels, which determine the volume, frequency, which determines the pitch, and also, the natural harmonics produced within that same signal by the strings, and how the pickups are converting that energy into a current. All of this mainly creates a general shape of tone.

There is one more thing about the signal that many overlook as a tone contributor. Phase. I don't mean being in or out of phase as in pickups. I mean the phase angle of the signal. That phase also affects how the speaker is going to interpret that signal.

Is it possible that capacitors alters the current's phase in any way that affects the tone? Why not? all LPFs and HPFs in some form or another involves resistance and capacitance. The discharge characteristics of that capacitor also matters, and different materials discharge the stored charges differently. THIS has been proven, and is a basic "A" level physics study when students learn about capacitance, and how to build their own crude paper capacitor.

We know that the phase angle is affected when you drill down to the smallest fraction of a second, because of the discharge quality. WHEN the current is discharged, and HOW it is discharged matters. This alters the phase because of the way the discharged current interacts with the principle current.

When doing mixing a song, one way to ensure that 2 similar sounds do not clash, other than adjusting stereo mixes and volume levels, is also to adjust the general phase angle of that sound. Similar principle applies, that phase angles (usually measured in radians) affects resultant tone.

But of course, to determine this factually takes a lot of equipment, and a lot of work. I don't think anyone can be bothered to do it right. But I know it can be done, and from what I remember about my electronics and physics, I know this is most likely the reason.

Likewise, PIO caps vs ceramic caps, which is better or which is worse, is subjective. But one thing is for sure. The differences CAN be proven, and there IS an explanation. Electronics doesn't cover this. Nor does Physics cover the entire chain. But if you have some reasonable knowledge of both, then what I'm saying should be familiar to you.


P.S. yes, I studied both physics, and electronics engeineering. But for the life of me, having worked in a totally different line altogether my whole life (Sales & Marketing), I can only remember the basics.

[5F6-A]

Originally Posted by jonesy

I guess only the true hard core Tone freaks hang out in this section

[5F6-A]

Originally Posted by jonesy

I am pretty sure that these "boutique" Tone caps are polarized...and they are paper in oil

don't think they are David

[NoStatic]

Originally Posted by Goldtop75

Great post Jonesy!!! I've added it to my blog, if you don't mind.



Actually, there IS proof to be had, and an explanation to be gleamed......

Good post.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by 5F6-A

don't think they are David

Maybe not Hilario, I just saw that they have the solid black line on one end and on all the older caps that means ground to that side?