De-Bunking Myths About Capacitors

[QuixoticSearchEngine]

Hello All,

I’m new to the board, but I’ve been lurking for a while and I think it might be time for me to actually participate in the discussion. I’ve been tinkering with guitars for the last 5 or 6 years (in fact, I might have been this very forum that gave me idea that I should trash all the electronics in my Epi Les Paul and replace them with quality American-made components). I’m not here to change anyone’s mind as to what capacitors may or may not do for their sound, but for those who might be interested in some subjective, non-scientific, purely anecdotal information about how different caps might sound in different guitars, I offer the following observations:

Bumblebees –
I picked-up 5 NOS bumblebees (.047 100v non-PIO type) a few years ago. I have tried them in several guitars, but I only really like them for the bridge pickups in my Les Pauls. They seem to give the guitar a warm and gritty tone that I really like from an LP. I have one in my 2004 Epi LP Classic (paired with an old Dimarzio Super Distortion) and another in my 2002 Gibson LP Special (with Harmonic Design V-90s). In both applications those bumblebees seem give that classic rock crunch (think Back in Black, British Steel, etc.). I have also auditioned them in my Peavey Firenza (P-90s), my Hamer Monaco Elite (SD 59’s), my PRS CU-22 (Dragon II’s), and my PRS 305 (PRS Singles), but ended-up going with something else in each of those.

I recently bought a pair of bumblebee “pulls” (.022, 400v, non-PIO) that spec right-on. They also give that warm, gritty sound. In fact, when I tried them in my PRS CU22 the guitar actually seemed to play louder, but don’t give that any credence (I probably bumped a knob or something.) I ended-up removing the cap a couple of weeks later. The gritty sound was kinda’ cool, but I don’t think it was right for that guitar. It sounded too much like my Les Paul. Right now I have a Russian K40 .022 400v in the CU22 and it sounds pretty good, but I’m about to swap it for an NOS Vitamin Q, .022 300v that I scored over the weekend. I also tried that BB in my Hamer Monaco, but as above, it made the guitar sound too much my Les Paul, so I went with a K40 and I don’t plan to change that one.

Alright, I’ve got to get back to work. I have also experimented with Hovlands, Orange Drops, Alessandro PIO’s, Vitamin Q’s, Russian PIO’s, Mallory 150’s, Mojo Dijons, and NOS Mustard caps. I’ll be happy to post my observations regarding those, if anyone is interested please let me know.

[RLee]

Wow, quite a thread, tons of useful info, several derailments, lots of good insights, lots of flawed logic and conclusions, in the end everyone made up... chuckle. I wish I'd been able to participate! Especially in the juicy parts.
What's funny is that the answers to the big debate about whether caps matter when the tone is on 10 were staring everyone in the face during the discussion, but no one noticed. (I'll stop there, that horse is thankfully dead.)

As a result of this epic adventure through the ups and downs of this thread, and also listening to the clips of the differences between ceramic and PIO, I'm going to be tinkering with the caps in my LP; before all this, I must admit I kinda scoffed at the whole idea that it made that much difference. But tone will tell!

[jonesy]

Yeah this thread has been a "Wild Ride" at times, but hopefully there is still some good information here that will help some of those out there seeking good Tone.

Be sure to let us know how your own Tone experiments go

[edsonguitars]

+1 Thanks Jonesy , I was looking for a post wich explains about that !!
my r9 arrived this week , so I played her and thought: this bublebees sucks !!
I have to replace it for others not as famous..., but you as you explained, fake...
could you suggest whats the best for my r9 ? and where I can find it ? I looked at ebay searching the luxe bees but didnt find it anywhere, are there many others but I dont know which ones will do the best job!!

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by edsonguitars

+1 Thanks Jonesy , I was looking for a post wich explains about that !!
my r9 arrived this week , so I played her and thought: this bublebees sucks !!
I have to replace it for others not as famous..., but you as you explained, fake...
could you suggest whats the best for my r9 ? and where I can find it ? I looked at ebay searching the luxe bees but didnt find it anywhere, are there many others but I dont know which ones will do the best job!!

Your welcome!

If you want good tone and don't care about the Bumble Bee wrapper I have an assortment of Quality made USA paper in oil caps in my ebay store if you want to take a look here is the link.

JonesyBlues Custom Shop items - USA Paper In Oil Capacitors


.

[gibsonguitar1988]

Very interesting!

I use Sprague Orange Drops in all of my guitars, but I will eventually try CTS pots and PIO caps.

I use .022s in both neck and bridge on all humbucker guitars (Les Paul, SG, 335, PRS, etc) and I use .047s on all single coil guitars (Teles, Strats, etc).

I did hear from Brad Paisley's guitar tech that a .1 is actually probably better for a Tele because it rolls a little more high end off and makes it fatter sounding...... It was in a video interview with Dunlop on YouTube I believe. Ah - here it is starting at 3:05:

YouTube - DunlopTV - Brad Paisley Tech, Chad Weaver

YouTube - DunlopTV - Brad Paisley Tech, Chad Weaver

[sdjjadk]

Hi Jonsey,
I sent you a PM. I'd like to get a kit for my Gibby 60's Tribute L.P. as well as my Epi. Ace Frehely L.P.

Shawn

[jonesy]

Good chatting with you on the phone bro. I will get that invoice sent over to you once I get your email.

Thanks, jonesy

[maumarques]

Hello,

I did an experimentation with Russian NOS PIO caps (K40Y, K42Y, KBG), NOS Mullards Tropical Fishes, Poly audio caps (STK electronics), Orange Drops and NOS ceramics.
I found that in any applications PIO caps got the most particular colored sound (sweet highs and more pronounced mids) even with Single coils, Humbuckers or P90's.
All other caps were very similar: More transparent or coloring the sound with a loudness feeling. Not an issue! For clean surf single coils sounds that´s great.
Between all the caps, KGB and K40Y were the best sounding caps (PICS).

Regards from Brazil.

[GuitarMechanic]

Originally Posted by VDeuce

The innards of Gibson's reissue bumble bee caps:

Edwin Wilson's Bumblebee Capacitors




Don't look like PIO to me, lol! These are Wesco polypropylene caps. Unless, of course, they have been changed, but I kind of doubt it.

I have a question
Are those markings correct for an original 50s cap? Because from what I see in the chart on that linkg that cap is a .00022 not .022

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by GuitarMechanic

I have a question
Are those markings correct for an original 50s cap? Because from what I see in the chart on that linkg that cap is a .00022 not .022

Yeah Gibson got the color bands correct anyways

Red Red Orange Black Yellow
.022 ---------- 20% ---- 400V



Capacitor decode page

http://www.pickguardian.com/pickguar...ee%20Chart.pdf

[GuitarMechanic]

Originally Posted by jonesy

Yeah Gibson got the color bands correct anyways

Red Red Orange Black Yellow
.022 ---------- 20% ---- 400V



Capacitor decode page

http://www.pickguardian.com/pickguar...ee%20Chart.pdf

Still I looked at that link and with the sample they have it has a red band in the 3rd position indicating 2 zeros between the period and the numbers 47 in the sample for .0047
By this reasoning the orange band in the third position would indicate 3 zeros in front of the 22 on the Gibson ones for .00022
What am I missing here?
From what I see there it seems like it should be red red brown

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by GuitarMechanic

Still I looked at that link and with the sample they have it has a red band in the 3rd position indicating 2 zeros between the period and the numbers 47 in the sample for .0047
By this reasoning the orange band in the third position would indicate 3 zeros in front of the 22 on the Gibson ones for .00022
What am I missing here?
From what I see there it seems like it should be red red brown

You are starting with the decimal in the wrong place...

Red 2
Red 2
Orange band = 3 Zero's 000

Start here 22.0 then move decimal 3 places to the left from where it is now and you get .022

[GuitarMechanic]

Originally Posted by jonesy

You are starting with the decimal in the wrong place...

Red 2
Red 2
Orange band = 3 Zero's 000

Start here 22.0 then move decimal 3 places to the left from where it is now and you get .022

Thanks Jonesy

I'm dumb

I bought some supposed originals from a 59 Gibson at a musicians swap meet last weekend and just want to make sure they are legit
They have those same stripes so I'm halfway there, I think they are originals so I will look at that tonight (any tips?) Is there any way to test them? I have a multimeter but it doesn't have the capacitance test. Maybe the local amp repair guy or something
I also probably need to buy some stuff from you too so I will send you a message when I'm ready
And thanks again for everything

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by GuitarMechanic

Thanks Jonesy

I'm dumb

I bought some supposed originals from a 59 Gibson at a musicians swap meet last weekend and just want to make sure they are legit
They have those same stripes so I'm halfway there, I think they are originals so I will look at that tonight (any tips?) Is there any way to test them? I have a multimeter but it doesn't have the capacitance test. Maybe the local amp repair guy or something
I also probably need to buy some stuff from you too so I will send you a message when I'm ready
And thanks again for everything

Your welcome bro

Your not dumb, just going through the learning curve. Lot's of things to sort out when your are first figuring out color bands and values etc. It can all get a bit confusing. I still have to stop and scratch my head from time to time

For caps in guitars voltage and leakage is not really as not as important as to what the cap actually reads. An .022 Bee will normally read .018-.024 ish depending on the tolerance and what circuit it was used in. The trouble with some of those old Bees is they have drifted way dark and an .022 may actually read .038 and that is not what you want with humbuckers. Many times sellers won't post the actual readings of the Bees and just say sold as is for that very reason. I meter and label all the Bees I get in just to make sure they are still within specs. or I won't sell them.

You need a DMM that has capacitance setting or a meter just made for checking caps. Like I said don't worry about the voltage test unless you are planning on using old caps in an amp, then it is critical.

[sevycat]

Well, the one advantage I have found to arriving late to the party is that there is a wealth of information already here. Thanks to all who added to the thread and a special thanks to the op.

[Mouse]

Originally Posted by jonesy

Yeah this thread has been a "Wild Ride" at times, but hopefully there is still some good information here that will help some of those out there seeking good Tone.

Be sure to let us know how your own Tone experiments go

Hey Jonesy, recently I tried a nice 50/60's PIO 0.022 mfd Zeus cap, I pulled it from old Japanese amp. Keeper.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by Mouse

Hey Jonesy, recently I tried a nice 50/60's PIO 0.022 mfd Zeus cap, I pulled it from old Japanese amp. Keeper.

Yeah, you never know what's inside those old amps. Sometimes you find those "golden nuggets" in old audio gear that may have gotten tossed otherwise.

[SvdH]

Just ordered a .015 and a .022 PIO caps from Jonesy, curious how they'll sound in my LP!

[jonesy]

[Mosh Pit Brawler]

Hey Jonesy, i'd just like to say that it's great to see you on MLP and the fact that you have started this great thread for helping the confused and it's helped alot and i was wondering do you know what type of capacitors fender uses on the mex strats

and i was wondering what electricals i could get good guitar capacitors out of and i have a japanese 70's les paul copy that i believe to have maylar caps in and what value and type of cap should i use to make the neck humbucker sound more like a vintage PAF pickup and what value and type of cap should i use for the bridge humbucker to sound slightly darker but not muddy

all help is appreciated and i will definitely buy caps from you in the future

[jonesy]

Greetings Mosh, seems like most of the Mexi Strats have the red .022 chiclet caps and the teles have the .047's. Those caps are either mylar or poly film.

Lower value caps like .015 may help out on the neck giving you less mud an better mid curve, but caps are only part of the tone equation. Good quality CTS pots and better wiring also play a big part in how your volume and tone controls function.

Look for old Hammond organs, tube radios and other old gear from the 50's and you might find some bumble bees inside. Newer gear from the 60's and 70's may have some tropical fish caps etc values from .010 uf to .05 uf (M) are normally a useful range for guitar tone caps.

[SGguy]

+10 internets for jonesy!!!

[Mosh Pit Brawler]

Originally Posted by jonesy

Greetings Mosh, seems like most of the Mexi Strats have the red .022 chiclet caps and the teles have the .047's. Those caps are either mylar or poly film.

Lower value caps like .015 may help out on the neck giving you less mud an better mid curve, but caps are only part of the tone equation. Good quality CTS pots and better wiring also play a big part in how your volume and tone controls function.

Look for old Hammond organs, tube radios and other old gear from the 50's and you might find some bumble bees inside. Newer gear from the 60's and 70's may have some tropical fish caps etc values from .010 uf to .05 uf (M) are normally a useful range for guitar tone caps.

Thanks Jonesy you are truly a tone god!!!!!!!!
I'll be looking for bee's for my 2 les paul rewires and i will be using CTS pots and high quality Irongear Pickups, have you ever heard of them there built in the uk and i've heard a pair of their pickups in an epiphone les paul custom through a voxand i've read his review and he's got guitars with duncans and EMG's and the les paul has become his favourite guitar to play and there only £25 instead of £65-£85 duncans or DiMarzio's and everyone on the reviews says that they perfer Irongears

[Deftone]

I'd just like to add that I tried out a .047 Russian PIO in a new build. It's a Mahogany Charvel with a single Duncan JB bridge. This set-up is apparently what Adam Jones (Tool) uses in his LP so I thought I would try it myself as I really love his tone.

The result to my ears is amazing. I like really heavy distortion, but I still want an organic tone that sounds dark and crunchy. It growls.

I put a Duncan Full Shred in my LP Studio with a Sprague .022 and the tone was brittle and spikey. So I dropped a .047 in there too and the results were impressive. Exaclty what I am after. I'm definitely putting an .047 in my LP Custom with a Duncan APH-2 Slash.

[jonesy]

Finding out what works best and sounds good to your ears is what it's all about bro.

[Deftone]

Originally Posted by jonesy

Finding out what works best and sounds good to your ears is what it's all about bro.

Thanks for your help, Jonesy

Now I just need to figure out what pots and wiring work best for me.

[Telover]

Great interest thread.
May be of big help.
I have a 1981 Burny Les Paul, awesome guitar, incredibly resonant. The problem is bridge pup.
Caps are pio .022 630V pots should be 500K.
I tried 3 of 4 pups in the bridge position, and only an early '60s Pat # sounded great plenty of high frequencies.
Every other pup is damn muddy. I've got a pair of 57 classic just today, a 57 classic plus for the bridge, but it didn't change anything.
Now I was thinking: if I take the bridge capacitor out I should listen to the pup sound without any modification, right?
The problem is, as I wrote above, the pat # sounded good so if it was the cap any pup should have sounded bad.
Any clue?

[jonesy]

Check and see what your volume pots actually read, if they are below 500K that may be contributing to the muddiness. Also if you have modern wiring vs 50's wiring you will lose highs as you roll down the volumes. The .022 caps can only do so much, as the pots and wiring methods also play a big role into how things interact. I use the best 10% CTS 550K pots and along with the 50's wiring and pio caps it will give you plenty of clarity with a wide variety of humbuckers. YMMV

[Mookakian]

Heya Jonesy, those blue polly's you sent me are growing on me big time, especially in fuzz builds! I were suprized at how woody and thick they are. What are they?

I quite like CRL ceramics, they seem to work very well in the Rud Russian germanium circuit, a tad brighter but the Blue polly's seem a bit more my style.

So i have one of the blue guys in the axe right now, with good results so far, like a Bee cross Russian polly


Thanks once again