Wraptails, made of what metals/alloys?

[neils]

Kinda curious here. I have an R4. The stock tail isn't steel, has no magnetic attraction that I can feel....

Is it aluminum? Zinc alloy mix of xxxxx? Anyone know?

How about the Pigtail '50s repro? Anyone know? I read their website.

I guess I wonder if they are made of the same or different materials.

Weight wise w/o a really crazy accurate that measures 1/10's of ounces all I can say is they both feel crazy freakin' light.

Neil

[neils]

Well I ordered another set of TonePro studs today but this time in brass. BTW when you buy TonePro studs they are brass unless they say steel.

I have a set of steel ones already I used with the stock Historic tail.

Pigtail steel studs fit every bit as tight to a Pigtail wraptail as tightened Tonepro studs. Really. They are machined that closely.

There was a great article in "The Tonequest Report". It was all about using different stud and tail materials to change or not change the tone of a guitar while using locking TonePro studs/tails. In general it said.......

Brass studs are warmer/darker than steel.

Heavy tails are darker/warmer than light tails.

Mixing and matching can warm up a bright guitar (they used SG's as an example of a bright guitar) or brighten a dark guitar (they use a mahogany LP at 9lbs as an example).

So the kind of sloppy stock R4 tail, light tail, brass stud was stock on the R4. I went to steel TonePro studs and stock tail. Brighter, little different tone and great sustain. But I lost something I liked about the stock parts. That was the steel studs.

Then I went to steel Pigtail studs and their very very nice light repro tail. So still steel but their tail sounds different than the Historic tail. Is the Gibson tail heavier or just a different alloy?

So now I'll drive myself a little crazier with TonePro brass studs to try the warmer side of studs but locking and not sloppy loose like stock Historic studs.

The slop BTW is from the studs. I measured the Gibson studs and the Pigtails with a micrometer. I measured the stock tail and the Pigtail tail.

The tails are the same sizes exactly where they fit onto the studs. You can blame all the tilt of the tail on the tolerances of the Gibson studs.

Neil

[mattymel]

dont be fooled by the lack of replies...
im anxiously waiting to hear what you think of the new experiment. my stock wrap R4 has had it. sitar-city...im thinking just what you are. but i'll wait for your results.

[Frails]

There is a significant weight difference between aluminum and steel. If its light, its aluminum.

There are more factors that come into play with this stuff. There are so many different grades of steel, aluminum and other metals. While two manufacturers may use steel, that doesn't mean they are of the same grade specification, have the same machineability, hardness etc. Ever wonder why so many screws strip out nowadays? It's that cheap Asian steel with low carbon content.

I prefer an aluminum tailpiece. Just more Les Paul tone to me. The bridge I go high grade cold rolled steel. When a manufacturer is not listing physical properties, then they are probably trying to hide the fact that its low grade steel. After all, if they are using quality steel, then they are charging you for it. And wouldn't the marketing people want to brag about the quality of their product?

I've used Tonepros and they are def an improvement over much of the stock stuff, especially the Asian hardware. But I have found both Faber and Callaham bridges to possess a significant improvement over the Tonepros. Playing unplugged takes on an acoustic nature. Clear and precise notes.

Regarding the slop, are the threads the same? There are fine and course threads. Measure the peaks of the threads from one to another like two mountain tops.

[neils]

Lots of questions. I'll get back with answers. But
regarding slop? I was referring to the way the tail fit
stock studs. Not the way studs fit the body. All studs are
perfect match there

[Frails]

Ah gotcha. Sorry I misunderstood. Yeah they should be holding that slip fit to somewhere around +/-.010 after plating. But I'd be willing to bet the cheaper stuff is .020 at least. Tighter tolerances = higher cost and its one of the typical things that goes hand in hand with low cost manufacturing.

[neils]

If you go to the historic/reissue area you'll find a thread called
my new R4. I have a post on maybe page 5 where I list
all the specs and clearances I measured.

Neil

[Frails]

Would have been easier if you just pasted the link...LOL I had to search thru 8 pages I think. Anyway..

Anyhow. I bought the Pigtail wraptail bridge and Pigtail steel studs. So the differences....

Between the bridges (stock historic/RI and Pigtail)the PT bridge has a different shape across the top for the strings to pass over. It has a smooth "ridge" or "peak" (as the real '54 did) vs just a smooth radius of a historic bridge. See the PT site for photos or google photos of les paul jr bridges. I got a hit that had photos that BCR Greg had posted.

So weight wise I have no scale to compare the two bridges. They feel the same. The alloy that are made from may be different also. The thickness of the bridge where is slides into a stud was identical on each at .277" BCR Greg swears by these Pigtail bridges.

The studs. The '54 came with brass. A real '54 would have been steel studs. So I had TP steel studs and put in PT steel studs. Of course these are repros of a '54 so don't have a locking top. Interesting note though, The height of the opening that the bridge slips into is different.

Gibson stud .312"
Pigtail .287
TonePro locks down so nevermind.

So do the math here and the PT stud in a PT bridge has only .010" of clearance. A Gibson stud and a Pigtail bridge have .35" of clearance, over 3 times the wiggle room.

Doing the install the PT bridge in the PT studs is a very very tight fit. Like almost wonder if it was made right tight. But take into account only .010" of clearance and that each stud may not be at the same height in the guitar so that is one reason. The PT stud is the right size, the Gibson is just machined too loose.

A Gibson bridge with PT studs would also fit this tight. It is the studs that make the difference. The bridges measure the same.

So OK I could have stayed with TP locking studs but I can't believe that are locked any tighter than the PT with PT. Any difference in tone between studs locked or just really damn tight? Impossible to say. Maybe a difference in tone with the PT bridge vs stock Historic.

The real difference though is I played for 3 hours this morning. Played till my Carpel said stop please. So I've got fresh strings on. They need tuning and tweeking. A new bridge and studs. So it is kind of a fresh start.

The best part is as I'm playing I can reach down with a little allen wrench and make intonation adjustments, make action/height changes. Retune and play some more, check intonation on tuner, make an adjustment. All this w/o ever taking the guitar off my neck. All because I don't have locking studs. I'm not knocking TP stuff. But this is nice.

Pigtail studs would make any Gibson bridge a better bridge. But all Pigtail studs are steel. There is a very interesting article in the latest ToneQuest report that describes when and why you WOULDN'T want a light bridge or steel studs or combos of either. Sometimes brass studs and heavy zinc bridges are best.

Low cost upgrade would be stock Historic bridge with TP locking studs, about $40

Pigtail studs are $69 but don't lock and are way easier to get setup.

Steel studs give a brighter tone than brass studs. Light bridges are brighter than heavier bridges.

.035" is a very loose slip fit and something you would expect to see on a low cost, high quantity, basic QC Chinese part. It doesn't surprise me that the fit is .010" on the Pigtail. They have a good reputation and their parts look like they were designed by an ME or someone with the mechanical aptitude to do it correctly. The same can be said for Callaham and Faber.

[freddarl82]

Frails,
You and Neils are making some excellent points. I've been very dismayed by the slop in the tolerances of the Gibson stud/stoptail slots. Seeing as all these things are made by a computer-controlled machine these days, I don't see why they can't bring down these tolerances closer to what the pigtail has (PRS does a nice job here, too). Secondly, why don't they use a fine thread for tailpiece AND bridge studs? Finer thread = more direct metal to metal contact. The average Nashville bridge floats all over the place due to thread-play when not under tension. The tuneomatic bridge is already a nicely engineered, somewhat complex piece of metalwork to begin with - why not top it of with a high quality (fine) thread? BTW, just to be clear, I do not think an ABR bridge would benefit from finer thread, since it is going straight into the wood (fine thread might be better in theory, but coarse probably works better from a practical standpoint).

[neils]

Well I'm at work so I have to make this quick but......

Nobody has ever picked up an R4 and strummed one chord and thought, "wow this would be a nice loud resonant lively ballsy guitar if only it had better hardware".

Stock they kick ass and are everything I just said they are. All that slop in the tail to stud fit, a little tilt in there maybe. It ALL WORKS.

And yet we change it. Freakin' GAS!

I may be answering a question nobody asked. Wait here's one, on a real '54 GT is there any tilt or play or slop at the tail-stud fit? A real old JR would be another to look at.

If you had a "real 54" or a JR, and it had some slop or play or the fit just wasn't super would you change parts?

Neil

[Frails]

I can guarantee you that a real 54' GT does not have a bridge made in China with cheap Asian steel. They were Made In America with American material, craftsmanship and quality control. WWII could still be seen in the rear view mirror in 54' and so its not far fetched to think that the same workers that took so much pride in producing the American war machine were now experienced skilled laborers making other products. So its really an apples to oranges comparison IMO.

[neils]

Well I just went through my little pile of wraptail parts. Some are from Epiphones and then the R4 parts.

I sold two other guitars before I bought, well I sold two guitars AFTER I got the R4 to help cover the cost. Both Epiphones, both reissues. Neither was junk either. And I wish I'd kept the JR.

One was a '57 JR RI. Set neck version and mahogany body (I know not how many pieces of mahogany), really a very nice loud clear resonant guitar. I of course changed out the studs and wraptail. Stock it had steel studs and an alloy wraptail. Hmmm, just like a "real" 57 JR would have had. Quality of that steel or alloy vs 1957 metalurgy? Unknown. I used the adjustable Pigtail wraptail on that one. Fantastic piece of machine work that piece. All was an improvement over stock I felt and I felt I really needed the intonation help on that guitar.

The other was a '56 GT RI w/two really hot very nice 9K P90's. Those pups were really great once that had good pots and Grey Tigers to sing through.
This was a TOM guitar so it got a better Gotoh bridge and tailpiece. What I took out was another alloy tailpiece. The bridge wasn't steel if I remember right but I really don't. The stock bridge was really rough to adjust intonation on. The Gotoh had more range too for intonation. I had brass studs on that one from TonePros.

Point is, not a hint of steel where there wasn't supposed to be. So I'm saying that sometimes all this aftermarket stuff is just GAS and hype and I admit I've bought into it. If I really knew what the alloy makeup of the stock historic tail was vs Pigtail honestly it would mean nothing. I'd just know that's all. I do know that both are alloy whether I'm talking made in China guitars or USA. The shape over the top of the Pigtail is correct to a '50s piece where as the CS Historic part has a different unpeaked radius.

Real Gibsons from the '50s with wraptail apparently always had steel studs and alloy wraptails. So my Epiphone was accurate. My R4 wasn't. It had brass studs. What is simpler than a wraptail? Two studs and the tail. You won't find a steel tail on any decent wraptail guitar wherever it's made I believe.

Now on a TOM (tune-o-matic) guitar according to TonePros the stoptails were potmetal. The studs were steel but later changed to brass. So all the holy grail '59s had a potmetal stoptail? TonePros makes one stoptail and it is made from "Z-mag". What is it? An alloy but not potmetal.

But I started this thread with wraptails in mind. You can look and see what Pigtail sells. I have it and it is really really well made. Tonepros offers two wraptail options. Solid alloy wraptail and adjustable alloy wraptail. You can buy with or without studs. And you can buy alloy or steel studs.

Mattymel my guess as to your guitar doing a sitar impression is where the strings cone through and around over the top there is a notch cut by a string or some reason the string doesn't have a nice full contact. I'd get some very fine cloth backed sand paper (we have it on rolls and inch wide at work) and fold or roll it up and smooth out the backside of the tail and the holes as much as you can.

FWIW you can go the the vintage forum and find a thread called I think "pictures of JR's just 'cause". Nearly the very first photo shows a real '50s JR we'd all love and guess what. The tail piece is tilted in the studs a bit. Poor craftmanship or choice? What if that little bit of tilt contributes to the way the strings and the wood all cooperate?

I keep mentioning this tone I had at certain places on the neck and certain strings. It was a wonderful harmonic or ring that I'd get as I worked the string over the frets. It would start to sing out over the original note. If I have to go back to a slightly tilting wraptail in brass studs to get it back as it once was (I've kinda moved away from it) I just may do it.

[vladmaximus]

my 78 Tokai Reborn tailpiece is an ALLOY tailpiece...its sooooooooo lightweight...
i dont know why its an ALLOY...and i do want to know why...

ROCK ON!!!

[Frails]

My points are bridge specific. I missed the point of your post in that you are talking about tailpieces...my bad there. IMO tailpieces should be aluminum only. If we agree on that, then its a question of what alloy recipe the different manufacturers are using. Because I dont believe for a minute that they are all the same. The light weight may signify aluminum, but what other elements?

[neils]

OK so the brass TonePro studs I ordered came today. And then something dawned on me.

I have several sets of the inserts that come with TonePros studs rolling around in the bottom of my parts drawer. They are all brass. Except for the one set of steel studs I've bought I've always bought the brass studs.

Like most people who buy the studs I install the studs and not the inserts. That would require a tool I don't have and I don't know anyone around here I'd trust the job to. So that explains all the brass inserts in my drawer doesn't it.

But here's the thing. TonePro brass studs come with brass inserts. TonePro steel studs come with steel inserts. Pigtail steel studs come with steel inserts.

So. Gibsons come with brass studs. What's in the body? Brass? Steel?

Does it make sense to put steel studs into brass inserts? Consequences of mixing and matching?

Something to think about. Next time I change strings, or I go to the brass TonePros studs I'm gonna check the inserts with a magnet. I can't tell by looking at the guitar.

Neil

[Frails]

Brass is softer than hardened steel. Inserting a steel stud into the brass insert could gouge the insert. Plus, a binding joint is only as strong as its weakest component. So there would be no real advantage gained by using a hardened steel stud if the weaker brass insert is used as well. Having said that, in this application, the weakest point of all would be the wood itself should a force blow occur.

[neils]

Well 'cause I know you're all dying to know I'll tell ya. The inserts in my R4 for the wraptail studs are steel. Steel inserts. The guitar came with brass studs stock.

I now have TonePro brass locking studs and the Pigtail repro wraptail. I kinda like the brass stud sound over steel.

Neil

[fslade]

Originally Posted by neils

Well I ordered another set of TonePro studs today but this time in brass. BTW when you buy TonePro studs they are brass unless they say steel.

I have a set of steel ones already I used with the stock Historic tail.

Pigtail steel studs fit every bit as tight to a Pigtail wraptail as tightened Tonepro studs. Really. They are machined that closely.

There was a great article in "The Tonequest Report". It was all about using different stud and tail materials to change or not change the tone of a guitar while using locking TonePro studs/tails. In general it said.......

Brass studs are warmer/darker than steel.

Heavy tails are darker/warmer than light tails.

Mixing and matching can warm up a bright guitar (they used SG's as an example of a bright guitar) or brighten a dark guitar (they use a mahogany LP at 9lbs as an example).

So the kind of sloppy stock R4 tail, light tail, brass stud was stock on the R4. I went to steel TonePro studs and stock tail. Brighter, little different tone and great sustain. But I lost something I liked about the stock parts. That was the steel studs.

Then I went to steel Pigtail studs and their very very nice light repro tail. So still steel but their tail sounds different than the Historic tail. Is the Gibson tail heavier or just a different alloy?

So now I'll drive myself a little crazier with TonePro brass studs to try the warmer side of studs but locking and not sloppy loose like stock Historic studs.

The slop BTW is from the studs. I measured the Gibson studs and the Pigtails with a micrometer. I measured the stock tail and the Pigtail tail.

The tails are the same sizes exactly where they fit onto the studs. You can blame all the tilt of the tail on the tolerances of the Gibson studs.

Neil

Hello Neil!

Where can I find the ToneQuest Report you mentioned? Could you maybe upload/share it?

I'd love to read it.

Thank you!