Audio VS. Linear

[tiedstick]

Hey folks. Haven't been here in ages due to ongoing health problems. Good to be back!

SO...I bought some CTS 500K matched pots for my LP and 2 vitamin q's. This whole time, I thought all pots were the same besides for their resistance value.

Today the pots came in, and I was surprised to see two of them were labeled "audio" and two of them labeled "linear."

Basically, I'm "59-ing" my LP out. With regaurds to that, my question is which ones should I use for my volume controls and which ones should I use for tone?

Thanks for any help!

[xsouldriverx]

to my understanding audio can be used for everything. but if you have to split it
audio-volume
linear-tone

dont take that to heart. im sure hillbilly will come along to save the day.
btw nice to hear youre back.

[tiedstick]

Originally Posted by xsouldriverx

to my understanding audio can be used for everything. but if you have to split it
audio-volume
linear-tone

dont take that to heart. im sure hillbilly will come along to save the day.
btw nice to hear youre back.

Cool. Thanks bud!

I just started doing a little research. Seems like most people use audio pots for all of them because the change is easier to hear.

Linear however are smoother(?) So I suppose like you said, they would make more sence in the tone positions.

Thanks again and I appreaciate the welcome.

[hillbilly]

RS Vintage Upgrade kit with Luxe BumbleBee caps...

[tiedstick]

Originally Posted by hillbilly

RS Vintage Upgrade kit with Luxe BumbleBee caps...

Sorry man, already spent the dough and got the stuff. Wish I knew earlier.

What do you think of what I got? Whats your stance on the audio and linear?

[meka]

Our ear is not linear. The measure for "how strong the sound is" is dB, which is logaritmic measure. That's why volume pots are not linear. On the other hand, tone pots do the same as volume pots, but just with a band of freq, so I suppose "audio pot" = "logaritmic pot". Of course, it's just something I know from theory, have no idea how practicly applyable this is.

[Christophe]

About pots, linear and audio:
About wiring and electronics - a compilation of information?

Yes, it's really better to use audio for volume, no question about it, as it's the way our ears works.
However, I don't think there's a concensus on tone. Some prefers linear, some prefers audio. I think it really depends of your ears and of your guitar.

But if you find that your tone control is acting more like an on/off switch than a full-value control, it may be that you would benefit by changing the type of your tone pot: if you have a linear (B), change it for an audio (A), and if you have an audio (A), change it for a linear (B)

Hope this helps

[tiedstick]

Thanks meka and Christope!

I am CONSTANTLY tweaking my volume pots while playing, but my tone pots are usually a 'set-it-and-forget-it' kinda deal.

So it sounds like I should be good with what I got. I'll be dropping them in this weekend so I'll let you guys know what I think. I suppose I can get 2 more audio pots later on if I wanna experiment more.

Thanks for the help.

[tiedstick]

Hey real quick not-so-related question:

What do you guys use to lube your pots? My new CTS pots are very tight/sticky and hard to turn. I can't find DeOxit anywhere. What about WD-40? I was thinking teflon oil perhaps???

[Jayjayman]

Originally Posted by tiedstick

Hey folks. Haven't been here in ages due to ongoing health problems. Good to be back!

SO...I bought some CTS 500K matched pots for my LP and 2 vitamin q's. This whole time, I thought all pots were the same besides for their resistance value.

Today the pots came in, and I was surprised to see two of them were labeled "audio" and two of them labeled "linear."

Basically, I'm "59-ing" my LP out. With regaurds to that, my question is which ones should I use for my volume controls and which ones should I use for tone?

Thanks for any help!

Audio..its obvious isnt it?

[Neodustin]

Originally Posted by tiedstick

Hey real quick not-so-related question:

What do you guys use to lube your pots? My new CTS pots are very tight/sticky and hard to turn. I can't find DeOxit anywhere. What about WD-40? I was thinking teflon oil perhaps???

If I were you I would order some DeOxit from Stew Mac rather than spray anything else inside the pots. I'd rather wait an extra week for shipping for piece of mind.

[FF_Pedals]

Where did you buy your pots?

[FF_Pedals]

Originally Posted by tiedstick

Basically, I'm "59-ing" my LP out. With regaurds to that, my question is which ones should I use for my volume controls and which ones should I use for tone?

If you use 50's wiring, use the linear pots for volume.

[korus]

Linear pots for tone are pure nonsense. You do not want any other than audio taper there.

Vol pots are more complicated matter. Linear taper is to slow, audio taper is too fast. Hence custom taper like RS Superpots (not affiliated,just happy customer).

my .02$

[Christophe]

Originally Posted by korus

Linear pots for tone are pure nonsense. You do not want any other than audio taper there. Vol pots are more complicated matter.

Based on which theory?

I would rather say the exact opposite, based on the bio-physical explanation of human hearing of volume (which IS log-audio) and tone (which is NOT log).

[FF_Pedals]

I think it depends on the wiring scheme. 50's wiring needs those RS superpots for volume and audio pots sound good in the tone.

[korus]

Originally Posted by Christophe

Based on which theory?

I would rather say the exact opposite, based on the bio-physical explanation of human hearing of volume (which IS log-audio) and tone (which is NOT log).

Too much education calls for theory when one is not needed.
No, no theory, just plain common sense.

Lets go to the facts. Here The Secret Life of Pots you can find this http://www.geofex.com/article_folder...s/pottaper.gif

500 k linear taper pot and 500k audio taper pot have the same effect only when both are either on 10 or on 0. Any other setting between 0 and 10 is different for these 2 pots.

Further, tone pot is just a simple variable resistor.That is why this graph explains its effect properly.

Now, MY theory/thesis : Most people (~90% of overall population with regular hearing ability) start to notice difference in highs when you turn AUDIO taper (LOGarithmic taper) used as a TONE pot in a guitar from 10 to 8 or even from 10 to 7. [end of theory/thesis]

On this graph one can see (y axis) that this equals ~ 32% for 8 or ~23% for 7 and this translates as 3 or 2 on LINEAR taper pot, cause it is - linear.

So if anyone would like to have usable range from 0 to 3 or from 0 to 2 using LINEAR taper pot instead of having usable range from 0 to 8 or 0 to 7 using AUDIO taper pot he/she is strongly advised to do so - use LINEAR pot as TONE pot in his/her guitar. To me, that is nonsense. And the fact that this is rather stupid should not stop anyone for doing it that way.

Now some notes.

1st note: all this is valid only for those who actually use their tone pots/who DO NOT keep their tone pots always on 10. If you keep your tone pot(s) always on 10 use no load pot : Project Guitar :: Checking DC resistance on your potentiometers

2nd note : estimation that effect of audio taper pot used tone pot starts at 8 or 7 is based on bedroom guitar situation. any real playing situation live with at least bass and drums bring these values even lower - to 5 or 6. go figure.

3rd note : TONE pot in a guitar is practically VOLUME pot for particular freq range. hence audio taper should be used just as it is used for volume pot

I really do hope "Linear pots for tone are pure nonsense. You do not want any other than audio taper there." is much clearer now.

[LiveOak]

Tidestick, I am glad you are back and hope that your health issues are over and gone.

As far as the audio vs. linear thing, there are lot's more qualified folks on here than I will ever be. So, I just play the hell out of my stock 2006 LP Std, 60's neck and I dig the tone so it is all good man!

[Christophe]

Yes, thanks, I think I know what pots are
About wiring and electronics - a compilation of information?

And I also agree with you that the effect is at the end the same, that the only thing that change is the behaviour you get when turning the pot.

If I understood it well, your "nonsense" is just based on your experience of using a log pot for tone on YOUR guitar, with YOUR pickups, in YOUR situation. And thus you extrapolate that what is good for you is the situation for "most people (~90% of overall population with regular hearing ability)"...
Is that right?

Well, ok, thanks for the explanation. I think it's easier to put your advice in context now...


Personnaly, I would still recommand for MORE theory than that, in order to make a decision, because I'm really not sure that what's fit you will fit me. And as I can understand people telling me what's fitting them, I'm a bit less trustful to people telling me that doing things different than them is "nonsense". No offence, of course.

I would still say that choosing log or lin for tone pot is really a matter of circonstance, you have to test with your guitar in your situation.
However, volume pot is NOT a "more complicated" matter, on the CONTRARY, it's a much easier matter, because science already answers this one (and I talk about REAL science here): human ear is percieving volume as log, so use a log if you want to have a usable pot at all (instead of a on/off switch).


No offence I hope.

[FF_Pedals]

Christophe, je pense que la difference qu'on dispute pour le potentiometre de volume se manifeste quand on utilise le schemat des anciens modele de les annees 50s. Tu vois maintenant que le control de 'tone' change la performance du control volume et maintenant les potentiometres audio sont pus les meilleurs pour cette application. La plupart du puissance volume se trouve entre 8 et 10, clairement audio n'est pas le choix pour le style 50s. La plupart des gens ici utilise la configuration des 50s et ca c'est le raison pour notre argument.

Wow my french is bad. Just trying to get our point across

You can't use audio for volume pots with 50s style wiring.

[Christophe]

Hey thanks, not bad, not bad at all

However, I disagree with you on this point. I don't think there's SUCH a difference between 50's wiring and modern wiring that would totally change the need for audio pot in vol:
About wiring and electronics - a compilation of information?

I totally understand that, between 50's and modern, there's a difference on the total tone effect, and especially on the interaction between tone and vol, but I don't think the vol principle change.

The fact that you put your low-pass filter (one) directly on the pickup output, or on the volume output, don't change the fact that the vol put is STILL controlling the % of total signal you get, and if you're using a log pot, then each step on your pot will correspond to your ears to doubling the volume.

Even if you put your filter on the volume output, and even if you're putting tone almost to 0, you're still getting the low part of the signal, and the volume pot is still controlling how much % of the signal you get. And even for low frequency signal, your ears are getting vol logarythmicly, not linearly.

And finally, even if it's nowhere near a proff, I'm personnaly using a 50's wiring, and I'm totally happy of the usable range of my audio vol pots.

So no, I don't see a scientific explanation for using linear pot for volume, whatever the wiring (50's or modern, standard or independent volumes).

But maybe I'm wrong, that's totally possible. But then, I would like to have good scientific explanation of why, especially concerning why it could be better to have a linear variation of volume when our ears are measuring volume logarythmicly.

[korus]

Originally Posted by Christophe

Yes, thanks, I think I know what pots are
About wiring and electronics - a compilation of information?

And I also agree with you that the effect is at the end the same, that the only thing that change is the behaviour you get when turning the pot.

If I understood it well, your "nonsense" is just based on your experience of using a log pot for tone on YOUR guitar, with YOUR pickups, in YOUR situation. And thus you extrapolate that what is good for you is the situation for "most people (~90% of overall population with regular hearing ability)"...
Is that right?

Well, ok, thanks for the explanation. I think it's easier to put your advice in context now...


Personnaly, I would still recommand for MORE theory than that, in order to make a decision, because I'm really not sure that what's fit you will fit me. And as I can understand people telling me what's fitting them, I'm a bit less trustful to people telling me that doing things different than them is "nonsense". No offence, of course.

I would still say that choosing log or lin for tone pot is really a matter of circonstance, you have to test with your guitar in your situation.
However, volume pot is NOT a "more complicated" matter, on the CONTRARY, it's a much easier matter, because science already answers this one (and I talk about REAL science here): human ear is percieving volume as log, so use a log if you want to have a usable pot at all (instead of a on/off switch).


No offence I hope.

First, no offence, definitely! I am not a schoolgirl with fragile ego. I do hope you're neither, as I used some a bit stronger words, and it was not my intention to offend.

Second, I do not extrapolate anything. I'll go very slowly this (last) time.

Let us say we have 2 completely identical guitars connected with 2 identical amps with identical settings. Except for a tiny little difference - the guitar A has 500k tone pot with AUDIO taper and the guitar B has 500k tone pot with LINEAR taper.

Now, while you are listening without watching him play (as a kind of blind test) someone plays guitar A with tone pot set to 10. Then he rolls tone pot to 9 without telling you and starts playing. If you are gifted (1 in 20 or 1 in 30 humans) you immidiately recognize the difference in guitar A tone.
The question is : if you want to hear the same tone on the guitar B at what setting it's LINEAR taper tone pot should be set at?

It is easy, it should be set at 5.

Now we can agree on :
1. guitar A with AUDIO taper tone pot has an usable tone pot range from 0 to 9
2. guitar B with LINEAR taper tone pot has an usable tone pot range from 0 to 5

Mind you, 1. and 2. are simple facts that are true whatever MY guitar is, MY pickups are and MY situation (signal chain?) is, since any of these were not used in making conclusion about simple facts at 1. and 2.

SO, if anyone in this world finds guitar B as the one that fits him/her more, I will be happy for him/her. BUT still I would not be able to find any trace of human common sense int that personal preference, hence I simply have to call it for what it is - nonsense.

As I wrote in the very begginig there is not any kind of extrapolation involved here. I think it is more some trivial math and a bit of common sense. And that is very simple reason why you'll almost never find a linear taper pot used as tone pot in a regular production electric guitar.
Maybe a very cheap ones, or repaired by a lousy tech.

BTW, the only production guitar having LINEAR taper pots as tone pots in my 30 years of guitar playing were those cheap lefthanded ones (e.g. Epi LP MIC) that had pot knobs printed in the opposite direction than regular righthanded pot caps, but no way they could justify reverse audio taper pots costs, so they just used linear taper for all 4 pots instead.

HTH

[FF_Pedals]

Christophe, do you have dependent or independent volumes? Maybe it's just independent volumes that need linear or superpots. Log is definitely wrong for my guitar that has 50s wiring with independent volumes. In this configuration the output always has 500k and the tone pot in parallel while the wiper controls the ratio of the pickup. When the volume is turned down the output 'sees' 500k. The impedance seen from the output varies as the volume increases, the pickup load varies from 500k to 500k in parallel with the pickup, lets say 10k so it now sees close to 10k. This changes the way the taper works and thus necessitates the need of a non-log pot.

[Christophe]

korus: no prob, no offense taken, I don't have a fragile ego either, and the goal here is to get a better understanding, so no problem at all

I think you didn't understood my answer, and I will put that on my part, english is not my primary langage, so it's my fault, I should have been clearer in my sentence.

I totally agree with your demonstration. However, it is totally based on ONE theory:

Originally Posted by korus

Now, MY theory/thesis : Most people (~90% of overall population with regular hearing ability) start to notice difference in highs when you turn AUDIO taper (LOGarithmic taper) used as a TONE pot in a guitar from 10 to 8 or even from 10 to 7. [end of theory/thesis]

Originally Posted by korus

1. guitar A with AUDIO taper tone pot has an usable tone pot range from 0 to 9
2. guitar B with LINEAR taper tone pot has an usable tone pot range from 0 to 5

And that is THIS theory that I think is wrong. Well, it's not even a real "theory", it's just your opinion about usable range of tone filter, based on your experience, and that you think applies to all.

This is YOUR theory, based on your sets. I really DO NOT think that, for every people, for every set, the usable part of a audio tone is only until 7, 8, or 9. I do really think that it depends. I do think that because, reading this forum and other, I have seen a LOT of different advices concerning tone pot.

First, you're talking only about people starting to notice "highs frequencies" differencies. But we can also talk about "lows frequencies" differencies. So this can play also on the LOW part of the "usable range". People starting to ear a difference only when tone pot reaching a specific level.

Then, you admitted yourself that this theory (about how much is the usable range for a audio tone pot) is only YOUR theory, based on YOUR set and YOUR playing. But I read a lot of different opinions about other peoples. Some that had audio pot, and whose usable range was so thin it was more like a switch than a pot (because low range was too near the high range). And then, using a linear pot was better, because the low range was then farther from the high range - which is the case if the low range is past the half of the 500k).

So really, I read so much different opinion, that I really think that defining the "usable range" of the tone filter is REALLY dependent of the person AND of its set.
Then, ONCE you found this range, then YES, you can make a choice about log or lin, to get the most pot range for this usable range.

I still haven't seen any THEORY about defining this range. The only thing I have seen, is people telling what is THEIR range. And you did exactly the same: you defined what is YOUR range.
So until someone give a SCIENTIFIC theory about usable range of the tone filter (which, moreover, will certainly depend of the wiring), then I think there's no NONSENSE using either log or lin for tone.


Finally, even if it's nowhere a proof, my Epi Les Paul MICz (which seems NOT to be "cheap") was, stock, with audio pot for vol, and lin pot for tone.


FF_Pedals: I got independents vols.
Moreover, it is my understanding that superpots are really much more like a log than a lin. It's a adapted log, adapted to the exact answer of human ears (which is similar to a log but not EXACTLY a log). But it's really NOT a linear.

Finally, I'm not sure about your reading of this. Even if pickup impedence is important, I think here you should see it more like a signal generator. It's not the amp that power the pickup, it's the pickup that generate a signal. And the vol pot still directly manage how much % of the pickup signal is send to the output. And how much % of the signal is send, it's exactly what our ears translate as "volume". So still, a log, or even better, a superpot, is really more adapted, because it will translate for our ears as "plus 1 on the pot" = "volume is double".

[tiedstick]

Originally Posted by FF_Pedals

Where did you buy your pots?

eBay, Hoagland Brothers Co. if I remember correctly.


Wow...forget to check in on this thread in some time.

Superb info, learning so much here. Thanks!!!

Well, the pots have been installed. The Audios went in the volume position and the Linears went in the tone. To my ears, and as some of you guys were saying, the Linears are more like an ON-OFF switch. I can hear no difference as I roll back the tone until about 3. 3 to 0 is where any changes in tone shaping occur.

Like I said before, I use my tones in a 'set-it-and-forget-it' fashion. Unfortunatly, that area between 3 and 0 is just too small to work with, and I hardly ever keep my tones all the way up to 10.

The Audio pots in the volume on the other hand are fantastic. To my ears, very nice and smooth tapering from 10 down to mute.

So what am I gonna do about it? Nothing!...I have no money! But I'm pretty sure I will be swapping the Linears for some Audios sometime in the future. Even if the Linears were just a BIT more flexible, I'd keep them, but I'd like more control.

Thanks again everybody for the great information.

[korus]

Sometimes it's best to test it personally. But look here http://www.geofex.com/article_folder...s/pottaper.gif 3.3 on linear equals ~8.2 on audio (log).

So your 0-3.3 range from linear will be 0-8.2 on audio, as I've already shown in my previous posts in this thread. Glad if I helped a bit.

And please do try RS Superpots (not affiliated) as volumes if possible to see that audio pots are "too fast" for volumes.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by FF_Pedals

If you use 50's wiring, use the linear pots for volume.

I use all CTS audio taper pots for volume and tone in all my wiring harness's, you will get a smooth taper and even roll off that way.

I have found linear pots will roll off abuptly when used for volume pots, wether it is 50's or modern wiring.

Not sure where you are getting your info FFpedals but I diagree with a lot of the information I have seen you posting lately

[Splattle101]

I thought that 50s wiring had the volumes dependent. As in, if you turn one volume to zero while on the middle position, the volume will drop to zero regardless of the volume setting on the other pickup.

I know that they can be wired so they're independent, but it was my impression (right or wrong) that the historical wiring had them dependent.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by Splattle101

I thought that 50s wiring had the volumes dependent. As in, if you turn one volume to zero while on the middle position, the volume will drop to zero regardless of the volume setting on the other pickup.

I know that they can be wired so they're independent, but it was my impression (right or wrong) that the historical wiring had them dependent.

Normally they work just like you have posted Splat, (wired 50's or modern )when switch is in middle turning down one volume will turn everything down unless rewired to Independent volumes...

Independent wiring is achieved by "flip-flopping " switch and pu wires on the volume pots and does not have anything to do with 50's or modern wiring, actually you can wire it up either way.

[korus]

if tone pot/cap is connected to input of volume pot - modern wiring
if tone pot/cap is connected to output of volume pot - 50s wiring

if inputs are connected to outer lug - dependent wiring
if inputs are connected to wiper lug - independent wiring

so there are 2*2=4 options

1. modern dependent
2. 50s dependent
3. modern independent
4. 50s independent

I think it is rather simple, though it's just me.
I consider independent wirings as tone killers.
50's wiring is unpredictable for those who use volumes below 5 (I do).

So, for me, modern dependent it is. With optional treble bleeds. YMMV, that makes life interesting.

HTH