New 'tronics or PUs?

[R/E/L]

so which should come first? the chicken or the egg?

new guy here, i gotta a cheapo LP special II but recently upgraded my amp to a pretty little Blackstar HT-5c. so dont want my guitar holding it back too much. obviously my guitar needs all sorts of fixn's (loose tuner machine that buzzes, ridiculously high action etc.)but right now i want to work on the main parts regarding sound. so i was looking at going down the less expensive dimarzio path with a FRED in the bridge and DP103 PAF in the neck, and then remembered that maybe i should peep at my electronics first.

unfortunately i was a fool and for a long time was too lazy and dumb to get some strap locks, as a result i paid for my foolishness and had my little buddy drop from my waist onto a hard ceramic tile floor, snapping off the knob on the selector switch and bending the head on the tone knob. thankfully the guitar still works well enough and i saw the err in my ways and got some nice dunlop locks. however in remembering this i was thinking maybe i should change the pots and switch now while im ahead and they're still working. i took a peek and theyre 500K.

so my question is, do i start with the pickups or change the electronics now and get the pups later. what would u guys recommend for the pots, switch, and possibly jack?

honestly im looking to use this guitar as a learning tool, to get familiar with the workings of an axe, and then eventually be able to use it as a back up once i upgrade in the future. so can u guys help a young nub out?

[hillbilly]

Quality electronics will help you more than expensive pickups. Like an RS Modern Upgrade kit. For alot less...

Buying pickups without having quality electronics in your guitar is like putting $1000-worth of tires on a Chevette...

[xsouldriverx]

electronics, with an electronics upgrade you may not need new pups.

[nicolasrivera]

Try electronics, try the 50's style wiring, i've done it and really feel it gives a more open and honest sound, and i cant figure out why because i did not believe it it at first.

Nico.

[b-squared]

+1 to Hillbilly's comments.

BB

[Scooter2112]

Agreed. Do the electronics swap first. That's normally a one-time permanent upgrade. Pickups can come and go.

[paulygates]

+1

Hillbilly knows best. I installed an RS Vintage kit and it improved the tone and made the pots actually useful!

I later changed the pups (Bareknuckle Mules) and it made no discernable difference.

Its cheaper and better to change the electronics.

[R/E/L]

alright guys, will do thanks. so any recommendations on what i should pick up? hillbilly mentioned that RS kit. would i be able to find that in any store or is it from the site only? anything i can pick up locally?

[R/E/L]

oh and one last thing, while looking through different pots and such, i keep seing stuff like push/pull, audio taper, linear taper, short shaft and long shaft, .047 and .022 capacitors and so on. im lost since this is all new to me. any threads or links to sites that could help me out with all this jargon?

if it makes any difference my current pots are labled B500K alpha and A500K alpha respectively. i could snap a pick if it would help any more

[uOpt]

This advice is bogus.

Unless the pots are completely broken better pickups make a much larger difference.

[paulygates]

My experience tells me the pots and caps made a bigger difference. Others seem to agree. Maybe if you have really crap pickups and you change them for some good ones. I changed some decent pickups for some expensive ones and it didn't make as much difference as changing the electronics.

YMMV

[dwagar]

start with the cheapest mod. Pots and caps.

then spend some time adjusting your pups and your amp. It might save you the larger cost.

[R/E/L]

again guys thanks for the help. so let me clarify the situation.

i have an LP SPECIAL II yes, cheap. and it still has the STOCK pickups. at the same time im strapped for cash. so both PUs at once isnt even an option yet, i was thinking of getting one then the other.

so far based on the bits and pieces ive decided on, im looking at 45-50$ plus shipping and possibly tax for the electronics vs. just under 65 w/ tax and shipping included for 1 pickup. so what choice would you guys recommend?

PS what would be the difference between a tall and short switchcraft toggle switch? which would fit my guitar better ( i realize i will have to drill a larger hole to acclimate its wider diameter)

[dennistruckdriver]

Originally Posted by R/E/L

....im strapped for cash....

The 'pots and caps' advice is much better than the advice given by the knucklehead who called such advice 'bogus', but if you are 'strapped for cash', perhaps you'd be well advised to wait a while, and upgrade the entire guitar, unless you are just wanting to 'mod' for 'modding's' sake.

[paulygates]

Long shaft for Gibson. Short for Epi. I think you need to drill/ream the hole a little for Epis.

I would suggest you call Billy at RS Guitarworks. He is very helpful and you can discuss your specific needs.

I went for the Vintage kit with a prewired toggle switch as I was after a vintage tone. It all depends what you want for your guitar.

[skyn]

I was always under the impression that pickups would make a bigger difference. Guess not anymore... Time to get re-wired

[rockmonkey]

^It depends a bit on the guitar. You are only as good as your weakest link. If you have a jack that is too flimsy and doesn't make good contact with your plug that is going to kill your tone. Poor switches can hurt your tone in the same way. Low end pots can kill your top end and make you sound like a muddy mess. Underwound pickups with ceramic magnets and cheap asian steel can make you sound thin and muddy both at the same time.

If your guitar does have the horrible ceramic magnet pickups wound to 8K(ish) with 44awg wire then you need to change your pickups 1st. You can tell if your pickups fit into the category by looking at the magnet. If it's black swap the pickups.

If your guitar has alnico magnet pickups then chances are your pickups are actually pretty good and possibly even better than many of the popular aftermarket pickups in which case swapping electronics is the better way to go.

Most of the middle of the range epiphone and the better "cheap" off brand guitars that people get have reasonable pickups. Most of the cheaper epi guitars and the really cheap off brand guitars have horrible pickups and need them changed 1st.


Edit: After a quick google search it appears that nobody says your guitar has alnico pickups which means they are probably underwound ceramic. I'm going to vote for new pickups in your case but really, you could do with replacing both.

[R/E/L]

yup should have mentioned they were ceramic

yeah i think im gonna hold off till later this year and then just do it all at once. seems like a better idea than getting electronics and then 1 PU at a time, which would just put stress on the parts every time i mess with something.

at least these last couple of days helped me get familiar with everything including the bits and pieces im looking at getting, so once the funds are there ill be ready.

thanks for the great advice guys

[joek86]

My general rule of thumb is to gut everything and start from scratch. Rs kit and new pups. If I had to start somewhere I would start with electronics. Just laying new pups on crappy electronics is like building a house on toothpicks. Billy is right on!

~Joe

[Paragon]

I would say pickups first.. maybe change the caps as well for a few bucks more.

Your guitar has Alpha full size pots already (linears for volume, taper for tone). They do what they are designed to do. it is just a resistor. Yeah, some are better in terms of quality but I doubt you will hear much of a difference. The cap is the typical poly green cap.

I wouldn't get too carried away unless you plan on keeping the stock stuff on hand to change back if you sell the guitar. It is, after all, a bolt on thin neck with a thin basswood body w/ laminate maple top. Basswood isn't that bad.. but a set neck just feels better.

I didn't catch what amp you had..

You could also save your money up and eventually buy a different guitar. Should be able to get around 100+ for that specII.

If you want a different sound with not a lot of cost, Iyou could possibly swap out a different magnet on those if they are typical humbucker construction. You might be able to tame them a bit - I think those ceramics are a tad harsh. I think RS has some bar magnets to swap. I would check the pickup construction first.

[overdriver]

Originally Posted by uOpt

This advice is bogus.

Unless the pots are completely broken better pickups make a much larger difference.

+1 and more so when the pups are of ? sound quality. But the fellow did damage some , so IMO he might as well change the damaged parts , not to an exspensive kit thing but rather ALPHA pots and orange drops & Leaf spring. www.guitarfetish.com

[overdriver]

Originally Posted by skyn

I was always under the impression that pickups would make a bigger difference. Guess not anymore... Time to get re-wired

IMO you are correct and the fellows that sell kits are the ones telling people other wise.

[hillbilly]

Do a search and you'll find a large group of people here who can tell you about RS SuperPots & caps...

[joek86]

If you only change the pups and hook them to stock electronics you will only realize part of the potential benefit that the pups can bring to the table.
One of most recent upgrades was to my 335 '59 Historic. What a dramatic difference with the RS harness......

~Joe

[SJS Rocks]

Do an Ebay search first. You can find the same CTS Audio Taper pots and good Sprague Vitamin Q caps for cheep. Or get a vintage kit from RS guitarworks.
After installing the new kit you guitar will come to life. Then get 57 Classic's pup's for real vintage guitar sound.
Just a thought.

[JM Vasek]

Originally Posted by overdriver

IMO you are correct and the fellows that sell kits are the ones telling people other wise.

I don't sell them...but I do buy them pretty religiously.

Quality pots and caps with so-so pickups is much better than putting fantastic pickups through crappy pots. If you spend a couple grand upgrading the engine in your car, you need to upgrade the exhaust to reach the full potential of your mods. Just like a car's engine, your pickups need to breathe. Crap pots will choke out good pickups. Good pots generally will make up for not-so-great pickups!

Plus, they're broken! Go ahead and put some new ones in!

[skyn]

I have yet to try this set out personally (hoping to set something up with Billy this Tuesday! Can't wait!), but have heard the difference in a friend's Les Paul before and after the mod. I couldn't believe the huge difference that some small changes in the electronics made. Amazing.

[uOpt]

This thread is absurd.

Unless the pots are outright broken or have the wrong value by a huge factor there is no way to match the difference even between different PAF style pickups, much less different wire pickups.

[asmith9509]

I agree with uOpt here, the pickups will probably make a larger difference in this situation. I have installed the RS pots, and I've tried many different caps including the Vitamin Q's. They made a clear difference to the tone, but not even close to the difference made by putting in good quality pickups. Even SD or DiMarzio's should be a massive improvement over stock.
The guy who recommended doing it all at once nailed it head on. I would save a bit and get pots, caps, and pickups and do it all at together. It will save you a lot of trouble, and also minimize the risk of frying the components by overheating with the soldering iron too many times.