Switched from 50's to Modern Wiring

[jonesy]

I have been playing my 2006 LP Studio 490/498 for a while now and was getting more treble out of it than I really wanted even with the amp dialed back. When I had installed the Sprague .022 HYREL Mil Spec PIO Tone Caps I switched it to 50's wiring. It has stock Gibson Pots and ground plate. It also has the Peter Green magnet flip in the neck pickup

I have found that Solid State Amps are a lot less forgiving than Tube amps Tonally, and if there is any harshness or bitey-ness in the guitar tone SS amps will bring it out even more than a tube amp.

Tonight I played through my MG 50DFX solid state 12" Speaker, dry, clean and then slightly crunchy. Then went to the bench and changed the capacitor leads from the center lug of volume(switch) to the outside (pick up) lug.

Sat right back down and plugged back into amp, all settings remained unchanged. I could tell right away that it was much warmer and thicker sounding to me and the Tone dials were even a bit more responsive.

Caps wire 50's style to center lug of volume pots...


Here they are switched to outside lug of volume pot where pickup wire attaches.




Just wondered what you guys think about this, I know the 50's wiring is really preferred here at MLPF but on this LP I found the Modern to be a lot closer to what I was looking for in my LP Tone??

Thanks for reading.
peace, jonesy

[Lance_S]

mmmmmm,

Something to think about for my wiring kit????

I actually run quite a bit of treble on my amp, but then back down the tone knob on the LP. I used to run both tone knobs bright all the time but have spent alot more time recently trying to "dial" in that elusive tone we all seek.

Look forward to seeing you!

Lance

[jonesy]

Yes, many things to consider in seeking that elusive tonemojo

I am still trying to track down that Gold hardware, looking forward to doing the install for you as well.

peace, jonesy

[slowhand0461]

Very Interesting

May have to heat up the Weller for this!

[jonesy]

Great pic bro....If you switch let me know what you think either way ok Martin???

[BCRGreg]

Now you are going to turn the sheep the other way, Jonesy.

[slowhand0461]

HAHA...That just shows I'm old enough to remember that on tv.......

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by BCRGreg

Now you are going to turn the sheep the other way, Jonesy.

Hmm, I don't know about that Uncle Greg, seems like a lot of staunch 50's wiring fans here at MLPF

[slowhand0461]

Heck....it only take a few seconds to switch...try it if you don't like it...switch back.....I'll probably try it tomorrow...Might get something thrown at me if I crank a guitar at this hour

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by slowhand0461

Heck....it only take a few seconds to switch...try it if you don't like it...switch back.....I'll probably try it tomorrow...Might get something thrown at me if I crank a guitar at this hour

I actually left the cap leads on the Tone pot lugs soldered 50's style and just swapped out the cap leads on the volume pots to the modern wiring.

[jonesy]

BUMP for some input on 50's vs Modern???

[sliding tom]

Originally Posted by slowhand0461

Heck....it only take a few seconds to switch...try it if you don't like it...switch back.....I'll probably try it tomorrow...Might get something thrown at me if I crank a guitar at this hour

Yeah, if your main guitar is a Les Paul, but I'm much more into 335s. Takes a couple more minutes!
Jonesy: I have tried the 50s wiring. Couple years ago I had to work on scratchy pots in my ES 335 DOT and decided if I have to go into that kind of work I could as well change the pots to CTS 500 ks and better caps (matter of fact: the guitar sounded great stock). So I also wired everything the so-called "50s wiring". Know what? I don't like it. I don't get the kind of treble roll off that I want and rolling down the tone knob results in a loss of volume that you have to compensate for. I never had trouble with loss of treble when rolling down the volume knob - I don't know why? May be I'm a freak as I also prefer linear vol pots over those so-called "log" pots (with a ratio of 80: 20) that work like the on/off switch that most people associate with linear pots. I think that "50s wiring" is a lot of hype.

[jonesy]

Tom as always your thoughts are well appreciated, and yes fishing your wire through the F holes in a 335 makes you wonder why them called them that to begin with

I have a big Ol' Washburn single cut hollowbody sittin at my shop that one of the locals brought in for me to install Gibson pu's and PIO caps. Will be going fishing on that guitar soon

You know I agree with what you said about the way that the Tone knobs function with the 50's wiring. As soon as I switched back to modern wiring on my Studio I could tell that the roll off was much nicer and there was no volume loss and the Tone was really smoothed out. Pots are stock Gibson in my LP have not changed over to the 500K CTS, but I like the way my LP sounds now with the modern. There does seem to be a lot of hype about the 50's wiring here at MLPF.

When I was selling a lot of LP harness's on ebay I was wiring them up like the "Black Rose" wiring. I had never even heard of the BR wiring until I joined this forum. When I built my LP rigs I had just combined Seymours Old Diagram with the way that Fenders are wired and a lot of LP/335/SG players really seem to love that wiring for their Gibby's.



If you look at one side of of the diagram the volume and tone is exactly how an early Fender Telecaster is wired up. The jumper lead from cap grounds to volume pot unlike the other two Gibson style. the 50's loops back through switch leads.


Seymour duncan wires his cap back to the tone pots in a more modern fashion. IMO That is also a warmer way as well to wire up an LP.
Look how the jumper wires from tone pots go to pu side of volume pot.
This is how the modern and black rose work as well...


I think if you have a "Muddy" sounding LP the 50's wiring may help with clarity, but in My Les Paul I Really do Prefer the Modern.

[b-squared]

Interesting stuff. I have my LPs wired 50's style, and kinda like it that way.

If I get a wild hair one weekend I might have to open one up and do some A/B testing.

BB

[Splattle101]

I have a 07 Les Paul Classic Antique that came with the H-90 pseudo single coil pickup. It came with modern wiring and awful ceramic caps. The volume control was nearly useless stock. The tone controls were slightly better, but not really much good.

Changed to 50s and it was vastly better. Still not right, though, until the awful H-90s were replaced with P-90s. Now it's near perfect. It has a pair of your PIOs in it, Jonesy: a 0.022 Hyrel for the bridge and a 0.015 Vit Q for the neck.

My other experience with this was on my '78 Standard. This is a big heavy mother of a guitar. It's not as dark sounding as some Norlins (perhaps because of the maple neck), but I used to find that most of the travel on the vol and tone was not useful. I used to do some fairly aggressive treble-heavy EQ on my amps to make the neck useful, and then tame the bridge with the tone. But my overall impression of that guitar was that it sounded great on about 3 settings, and after that it was a bit marginal. I was never entirely happy with the tone of it with volume rolled back to clean up an overdriving amp. It cleaned up, but it got muddy too, unless I was exceptionally careful.

I got used to playing it that way for the better part of 10 years. I didn't know that Les Pauls weren't meant to sound that way...

...but changing over to 50s wiring on that was a revelation. Suddenly I could do all that stuff I could hear Page and Gary Moore doing, and my tone didn't turn to sludge!!!. Changing to 500 k pots made a big difference to the overall brightness, but the 50s wiring meant that the pots were useful below 8 for the first time.

Fast forward another 10-15 years and it's now also got PIOs (yours again, Jonesy: same as above), and an alloy tailpiece. All I can say is: I wish I'd known about this when I started.

But that's a dark old Norlin that had fairly dark T-Tops in it until not long ago. I don't think it's going to sound much like a modern Studio with 498s.

I think the moral of the story is horses for courses.

[John Vasco]

I'm totally feckin' lost on this...

[dwagar]

I'm one of those staunch supporters of 50s wiring. But I think Jonesy may have stumbled upon something here.

And it may have to do with amps, and volume.

I'm a tube Marshall kinda guy (JCM800 or JTM60) and tend to play fairly loud, well, loud enough to piss off the piano player anyway. I found 50s wiring to be a Godsend. Yes, I do use my vol and tone controls a lot. And in a band setting, I do have to cut through the mix. I cannot get lost in the mud.

It's often been questioned why Gibson uses modern wiring. Maybe it is because most of their customer base is using SS amps and playing at bedroom or basement volumes, and maybe it does sound best for those. Maybe Gibson does know what they are doing?

Way to go Jonesy.

[Splattle101]

That's a possibility, Dwagar. I'm another playing cranked non-master volume amps and riding the controls.

[LiveOak]

I've learned alot so far on 50's wiring vs. modern, thanks. I'll keep mine modern for the time being.

[sapi]

Jonesy, i have been using the same exact modern wiring like you for some time now. I had tried the '50's wiring but did not like how the tone and vol controls interacted.
I'm playing thru a Bassman modded to vintage specs, guitar is a '94 LP Classic PPlus with WB 67-07's VTPH's, RS Superpots and pots, BBeauties .022's, 10's strings, lightweight TP and Faber tonelok kit.
I think it's the only vintage 'mod' that didn't work for me, well... except for real PAF's, but i never tried those LOL.

[jonesy]

Just for the record I do play loud quite often and I am one of those guitar players who will not be drowned out by a drummer
I had my Little 50 Marshall ss plugged into a 4 x 12 Ampeg cab with my band (ear rings after practice if that says anything about db levels) and I still found it brighter than I wanted.

Volume level or solid state amps will basically not have not affect on the improved way my tone rolls better with modern wiring. Of course this is how it sounds and works on my guitar and I know it varies from guitar to guitar.

Thanks Don & Splat for chiming in I really value your opinions

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by sapi

Jonesy, i have been using the same exact modern wiring like you for some time now. I had tried the '50's wiring but did not like how the tone and vol controls interacted.
I'm playing thru a Bassman modded to vintage specs, guitar is a '94 LP Classic PPlus with WB 67-07's VTPH's, RS Superpots and pots, BBeauties .022's, 10's strings, lightweight TP and Faber tonelok kit.
I think it's the only vintage 'mod' that didn't work for me, well... except for real PAF's, but i never tried those LOL.

So I am not totally crazy then
thanks bro

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by John Vasco

I'm totally feckin' lost on this...

Thanks for dropping by anyways Mr. Vasco

[sliding tom]

Originally Posted by John Vasco

I'm totally feckin' lost on this...

Call yourself a lucky man!

Just for the record: I am not one of those who usually plays through ss amps except at home and for small band practice. I have been gigging extensively since 1975 through an assortment of tube amps starting with an AC 30 and now a Fender CVR and DRRI controlling a lot of my tone and volume from the guitar. But I am mostly a clean / crunch (verge of breakup) player so this might be different from all of you who prefer a more distorted sound.
I still have to go back into said 335 to switch back to modern wiring but haven't had the nerve to do so yet. Also I have a pair of Hovland .015 caps that I want to put in there that I got dirt cheap off ebay (seems like nobody wanted these values). Jonesy, what do you think I'd have to expect from .015 caps in a humbucker guitar?

[jonesy]

I have had several tube amps over the years, Blues jr's, Devilles, a Rivera combo, Peavey Classic etc and in my experience is that if a guitar sounds good plugged into a SS amp it will probably sound Awesome when run into a Tube amp. I just don't have the funds available for an all tube Marshall or I would be playing on one for sure.

As far as the .015's a lot of guys here at MLPF forum were running .015 in neck and .022 for bridge. The .015's give you a lot more room to spin the dials with out getting muddy.
I started modding that Washburn hollow body I mention earlier and I installed a pair of .033 Russian K-40 series PIO caps and expect excellent tone and roll off on them.

Some people never touch their tone dials, for those who do you will find that each cap will have it's own Tonal qualities and characteristics. I am pretty sure Dwagar loves the .015 Bee that I sent him, he may have more input on .015's for you Tom.

[Splattle101]

I like the 0.015 Sprague Vit Q I use in the neck of my Standard. As Jonesy said, it allows a lot more play on the tone control before it's mud. It worked very nicely with the SD '59 I had in there, and it works well now with the Tonerider Classic IV I have in there now.

[-=[Shifty]=-]

I'm pretty lost on that subject, too. I haven't messed with the wiring of any of my guitars yet, except for putting a '57 Classic + in my SG some 12 years ago.
But I'm interested in how the different wirings would affect the tone. My '92 Epi has SD '59s in it and the bridge volume pot has been changed to a 500k. The others look like the stock ones that were used in older epis. I have bought the guitar that way. However, I've noticed that the guitar lacks some brightness. (Especially, since my new Tokai came in today)
When I play along to Zakk's Farewell Ballad for example, his guitar sounds much dryer, brighter and has more treble. When I dial the tone and volume to ten on my bridge pup, it still has this singing mids that you usually have to shut the tone down for. (Damn, it's hard to explain in another language)
Not to mention that it loses pretty much all the treble when I dial the volume down.
I'm pretty sure that it's not due to the pups. So I thought about rewiring my guitar. But I don't have a clue what all the different wiring methods would do, tonewise. I guess that's more like trial and error, huh?

[jonesy]

Lot's to consider, changing out pots will also help clear up your Tone. But as far as the tone getting muddy when your volume is turned down a "volume bleed kit" may take care of that issue for you. I use a .0022 cap/100K resistor for my volume bleed kits. Your Tone will stay crisp even when volume is rolled almost all the way down.

[dwagar]

Originally Posted by jonesy

As far as the .015's a lot of guys here at MLPF forum were running .015 in neck and .022 for bridge. The .015's give you a lot more room to spin the dials with out getting muddy.

Some people never touch their tone dials, for those who do you will find that each cap will have it's own Tonal qualities and characteristics. I am pretty sure Dwagar loves the .015 Bee that I sent him, he may have more input on .015's for you Tom.

oh yeah, as a matter of fact, I've ditched the .022s from the bridge too. I run .010s in the neck and .015s in the bridge. That works for my settings, my guitars, my amps. You may want the extra bass you'd see in a .022, I don't.

So I am not totally crazy then

oh, I don't know if anyone on here said that Jonesy.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by dwagar

oh, I don't know if anyone on here said that Jonesy.

No I don't think so, but you know what I mean Don
(totally being the Key word)