Why replace gibson humbuckers with other brands?

[Richie555]

I seems strange to me that that while people are trying to get close to that original paf sound, they then rip out gibsons humbuckers to replace them with other brands copies of the gibson paf. Surely logic say gibson would be closer to the original.

[Led Zep Fan]

Originally Posted by Richie555

Surely logic say gibson would be closer to the original.

It should be that way, but it's far from it.

[gmacdonnell]

It's good, straight-forward logic, but totally fails the real world test. I mean, a 1931 Model A Coupe is a damn fine car, but that doesn't mean a new Ford Focus is going to be as good.

If you're looking for a PAF, Gibson's current offerings have the wrong components, (metals, wire, plastics,) design, looks, and most importantly, tone. If they don't even bother to use the right covers, or the vitally important enamel-coated wire, (though they sometimes lie and claim they do use it,) what does that say about their dedication to reproducing the PAF?

They make a fine pickup, but it's nothing at all like what they produced in the 50's and early 60's.

It's a sad fact that to get the the closest pickups to PAF's, you need to get pickups made not by Gibson, but by small winders like WB, Lollar, Fralin, Shed, Bare Knuckles, OTPG, SD Pickups, Wolfetone, etc.

Those guys are truly dedicated towards delivering the true PAF sound, feel and response.

Gibson is more concerned about mass producing a pickup that pleases most of their customers. '57 Classics and Burstsbuckers are fine pickups, but they're not accurate PAF's in any way, shape or form.


Don't forget, Gibson has changed owners twice since they made PAF's, and has moved from Kalamazoo to Nashville & Memphis. (Which is why some feel Heritage Guitars are the "true heirs" to the Gibson legacy, and they do have a valid point.)

Most of the original equipment was sold off, for example Seymour Duncan owns the original Leesonas that wound the PAF's, (and that doesn't even guarantee they make the best PAf's either.) And much information was lost along the way, (Tim Shaw, and then Tom Holmes both had a very hard time finding out the PAF recipe even though they had full access to Gibson's records.)


The bottom line is, Gibson is a mass-production guitar company now, (which they weren't in the 50's.) They want to make a good product as fast and cheaply as possible. That makes historical accuracy comes in a distant 2nd.
Even on Historics, which are the most accurate replicas they make, they use Burstbuckers and fake Bumblebee tuners, which aren't like the originals.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what they make, as long as you realize you're not getting a 100% accurate guitar or pickup.

I mean, to an extent, you can make similar points about Fender, and their pickups.


Remember, in the 1950's, guitars and pickups were made one at a time, by talented craftsmen. Even machine wound pickups like the PAF's were hand-assembled, and they didn't make a whole lot of them. Guitars didn't sell in huge numbers then, and products sat in music shops for years at a time. Good companies would take a little extra time to make sure things were right to begin with.

Nowadays the focus is on quantity. To top it off, most people who buy Gibsons don't know very much about guitars, they just want a guitar like ______ (insert guitar hero here.) For those folks, and many others, their current pickups are fine.

For people who know what real PAF's are like, and who love that tone, they need to look elsewhere.

[General Disarray]

Originally Posted by Richie555

Surely logic say gibson would be closer to the original.

Heeeeeeyll no!

[hillbilly]

What does 'logic' have to do with Gibson?

[gmacdonnell]

Originally Posted by hillbilly

What does 'logic' have to do with Gibson?

I believe all new Les Pauls have "logic v.6.1" installed in the onboard computer. For true PAF, old wood and PIO tone.

[BCRGreg]

I put better tires on my car, the stock ones sucked.

[Blues Power]

same reason we buy mustangs and camroes only to change the cam, intake, chips and heads

its a lil thang called high perfomance

[Shai`tan]

"Remember, in the 1950's, guitars and pickups were made one at a time, by talented craftsmen."

Hence the term... "the good `ol days".

[lp_junkie]

because Gibson pickups do not produce the sound I like, although lately I am starting to like the 500T but it is not a PAF type.

I am into super saturated high gain, so PAF's don't fit the bill for me.

[Darkburst]

Originally Posted by Richie555

Surely logic say gibson would be closer to the original.

LOL! That's a good one man!

Seriously though, every PAF clone I've tried is better than Gibson's Burstbuckers.

[dork5002002]

Originally Posted by hillbilly

What does 'logic' have to do with Gibson?

+1

Yeah, I can hardly make sense of some of the changes I've read that gibson has made over the years. I guess since it is a privately owned company and has changed owners every decade or so, noone will completely understand the choices made.

[5F6-A]

Originally Posted by hillbilly

what does 'logic' have to do with gibson?

lol

[LiveOak]

It's all about tone, or lack thereof. Very subjective and different for everyone, one players pickup preference will be different from another, and on and on it goes, where it stops only G.A.S. knows!

[gmacdonnell]

Gibson doesn't make the "Gibson-style" pickup?

[Horse]

this is a great debate. ive got a different view on this..... now i, like most of us, has listened to so many people palying so many gibbys with different pups. what has always been my fav tone? well, mostly the ones with gibby pups. I ive heard loads of studio's that have the gibby pups and the tone has been every inch what want from a Gibby les paul....

im not saying other dont sound great or better, but hey, just gotta use your ears at the end of the day, sometimes there is a little to much black magic surrounding pups....

[Deftone]

I happen to like new Gibson Pickups, especially the 498T. But I've only tried a few others. I'd like to try something different in one of my Les Paul's but I don't know where to start.

[Ides of March]

I really like the growl and bite from the 490/498's in my studio.
And I am still getting used to the classic 57's in my Traditional but the other day at practice when pushed they sounded really good.

I have no idea if Gibson's pickups have gone down hill or not. But from what I get out of my Gibsons they sound just fine to me.

[The_Sentry]

I have a confession to make: I'm not looking for a PAF tone per se. I'm looking for the best tone possible out of the guitars I own.

I have Gibson boutique pups in a few of my guitars. I don't really look at it as whether or not I'm getting "that tone" so much as they sound pleasing to my ears.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Ides of March

I really like the growl and bite from the 490/498's in my studio.
And I am still getting used to the classic 57's in my Traditional but the other day at practice when pushed they sounded really good.

I have no idea if Gibson's pickups have gone down hill or not. But from what I get out of my Gibsons they sound just fine to me.

They're great pickups. I'm not a huge fan of 496/498/500s (not a high gain person I guess), but I love 490s and '57 Classics. I've got examples of '57 Classics spanning the years something like '93 to '07. I prefer the older ones, but maybe that's just because I'm more used to them. The differences (if they're really there) are pretty subtle. Certainly wouldn't say they have gone downhill, but maybe don't sound exactly the same.

The thing is that Gibson provide what people want. Were they to start equipping guitars with something sounding like their 50s pickups, the average customer wouldn't enjoy the experience. They sound quite thin and compressed when you're not used to them. They are also quite microphonic, and a bit "unforgiving" in terms of picking up pick scrape and finger noise. The Classics and 490s are a similar vibe, but with the mids warmed up and a bit more "normal" sounding to our 21st Century ears. The Burstbuckers are supposedly a step closer to the real thing. I've not played enough BBs to know.

Gibson do a fine job of making humbuckers. Almost all of the replacement humbuckers I have ever bought have been made by Gibson. The thing that they don't do is to replicate any of their old pickups (or guitars for that matter) as well as some others. That's the only reason I've used other brands at times.

Liam

[EEF13]

you also want to find a sound that suits you

[gmacdonnell]

Originally Posted by Liam

The thing is that Gibson provide what people want. Were they to start equipping guitars with something sounding like their 50s pickups, the average customer wouldn't enjoy the experience. They sound quite thin and compressed when you're not used to them. They are also quite microphonic, and a bit "unforgiving" in terms of picking up pick scrape and finger noise. The Classics and 490s are a similar vibe, but with the mids warmed up and a bit more "normal" sounding to our 21st Century ears. The Burstbuckers are supposedly a step closer to the real thing. I've not played enough BBs to know.

Gibson do a fine job of making humbuckers. Almost all of the replacement humbuckers I have ever bought have been made by Gibson. The thing that they don't do is to replicate any of their old pickups (or guitars for that matter) as well as some others. That's the only reason I've used other brands at times.

Liam

Very wise words.

Dave Stephens is a guy who's making humbuckers that sound like real PAF's, (there are only a few, very talented winders doing this.)

Here's a great video comparison:
Stephens Design Vintage Lab vs Paf (Video Demo) G0 vs. '60 Burst


I love that tone, but many folks want a thick, fat, warm tone.

It's almost like people want the sound of a PAF, recorded through a tube amp, tube mic and preamp, analog board and onto tape, directly from their guitars. Which could be why almost every "PAF" style pickup is much thicker, warmer and less clear than orginals.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Ides of March

I really like the growl and bite from the 490/498's in my studio.
And I am still getting used to the classic 57's in my Traditional but the other day at practice when pushed they sounded really good.

I have no idea if Gibson's pickups have gone down hill or not. But from what I get out of my Gibsons they sound just fine to me.

i totally agree, i think the Studios sound fantastic and very much the Gibby lp tone, great pups.

57s are a different vibe, i think you got a great combination there bro

[franklmacias3176@sbcgloba]

I've searched high and low for any information concerning the humbuckers in my 1988 Les Paul. I found out they were designed/made between 1988 and 1989 by Bill Lawrence. These pups have a circuit board behind them with HB-L or HB-R on it. It also reads, "The Original" on the board. The original of what? What model was used to design these pups? Does anyone have any good info on them? I know I liked their sound before the lead pup went out.

Does anyone know if when pups go out, can they be repaired? My repair man said no and replaced it with a Seymour/Lover SH-55 which with the combination of the HB-R I really, really like.

My guitar is a cherry sunburst plaintop. It is still beautiful without flames. It is a workingman's guitar and has its war wounds but I wouldn't sell or trade it for any flame-topped guitar in the world. I've been mesmerized by these guitars since I saw Mike Bloomfield play one at the Fillmore in mid-1966. When I heard that tone live I knew I was going to get one. I may be the original Les Paul hunter. I immediately began "the hunt" that year. I had no luck until mid 1968 when I found what I thought was a 1959 flame top in Palos Verdes/San Pedro area of LA. They wanted $750.00 for it. It had cracked finish lines all over it and it was a clear or a completely faded finish with flames all over the top. I went to borrow the money but Household Finance was closed for July 4. Because of the condition of the guitar, the length of time to return to the music store and the amount of money for 1968 I lost interest in it. OUCH!

[Exluthier]

I always thought 57 classics sounded pretty good, but the problem for me with Gibson pickups are they're way over priced when other pickup makers are putting out a comparable product for a lot less.

[Mark H]

The music that gets heavy rotation on the FM rock stations today almost always has a hi gain distorted guitar playing the backing track. The guys in heavier bands, think Metallica, Lamd of God..all change out there PUPs or have custom axs with the PUPs already swaped, and it ain't a PAF sound their looking for. The music that is making $$ today dosn't require a PAF sound, so why is Gibson going to make a guitar that IS low gain?
And it is a mass produced guitar with a bottom line to be looked after. just because we may like them, remember they ain't making guitars for people that like '70 music, even if your name is Jimmy Page. The '80s and brands like Kramer and Charvell cured them of that.

[franklmacias3176@sbcgloba]

Would Like to know if I was one of the first if not the first Les Paul hunter. When I first started the hunt in mid-1966 I had no idea these guitars would grow to be so much in demand. I think this would be an interesting thread to start. I did pass up on the first one in June, 1968 but that's another story. Come on, let's hear your story and I'll tell you mine.

[Hamtone]

Originally Posted by franklmacias3176@sbcgloba

"the hunt" that year. I had no luck until mid 1968 when I found what I thought was a 1959 flame top in Palos Verdes/San Pedro area of LA. They wanted $750.00 for it. It had cracked finish lines all over it and it was a clear or a completely faded finish with flames all over the top. I went to borrow the money but Household Finance was closed for July 4. Because of the condition of the guitar, the length of time to return to the music store and the amount of money for 1968 I lost interest in it. OUCH!

My grandfather won some guitar lessons in the 50's and decided he was going to play. He went to some pawn shop and saw a gibson. He played it for alittle while and lost interest then my dad started playing, so he gave the guitar to my father. My father still has that 1959 gibson es 335 with sunburst finish. It has sat in its case since the early 90's and is in need of a total restoration. I know this doesnt have anything to do with pauls but, that guitar my grand father bought for $200 is worth ridiculous money now. I wander how many people in the US are sitting on similliar rich's

[lp_junkie]

Originally Posted by Richie555

I seems strange to me that that while people are trying to get close to that original paf sound, they then rip out gibsons humbuckers to replace them with other brands copies of the gibson paf. Surely logic say gibson would be closer to the original.

Unless you have original PAFs and even then some of them are not up to par, you can always do better than the stock pickups that Gibson uses now.

That mantra "Only a Gibson is Good Enough" is just marketing hype and nothing more, resting on a reputation the modern company had no hand in building.

[Big John]

Originally Posted by lp_junkie

Unless you have original PAFs and even then some of them are not up to par, you can always do better than the stock pickups that Gibson uses now.

That mantra "Only a Gibson is Good Enough" is just marketing hype and nothing more, resting on a reputation the modern company had no hand in building.

These two statements should be cast in stone. This is pure truth.