Why replace gibson humbuckers with other brands?

[Deftone]

Originally Posted by franklmacias3176@sbcgloba

I've searched high and low for any information concerning the humbuckers in my 1988 Les Paul. I found out they were designed/made between 1988 and 1989 by Bill Lawrence. These pups have a circuit board behind them with HB-L or HB-R on it. It also reads, "The Original" on the board. The original of what? What model was used to design these pups? Does anyone have any good info on them? I know I liked their sound before the lead pup went out.

I have two sets of these pups. I removed them from my 87 & 88 LP Custom's because I prefer the 490R/498T combo.

[Hamtone]

Originally Posted by Deftone

I have two sets of these pups. I removed them from my 87 & 88 LP Custom's because I prefer the 490R/498T combo.

I have a pair of these (somewhere) The rhythm pup failed but was working when i took them out.

[AngryHatter]

Good thread and very timely.
I am researching so I can replace the 490s in my SG.

The more people talk of the whys and wherefores, the more I think I am doing the right thing in swapping out for better sound.

Thanks again for the thread.

[The_Sentry]

Originally Posted by Richie555

I seems strange to me that that while people are trying to get close to that original paf sound, they then rip out gibsons humbuckers to replace them with other brands copies of the gibson paf. Surely logic say gibson would be closer to the original.

I like the sound of the Gibson boutique pups...and I couldn't give a rip about the PAF sound.

I guess I don't see the point in trying to sound like someone else...

[qwank]

Originally Posted by The_Sentry

I like the sound of the Gibson boutique pups...and I couldn't give a rip about the PAF sound.

I guess I don't see the point in trying to sound like someone else...

+1

The BB3 and the 496R/500T are some of my favorites

[bryvincent]

Originally Posted by gmacdonnell

The bottom line is, Gibson is a mass-production guitar company now, (which they weren't in the 50's.)....


Remember, in the 1950's, guitars and pickups were made one at a time, by talented craftsmen.......

even though Gibson made less instruments than today, they were already a mass-production company in the 50s. and IMO, Gibson became a mass- production company as soon as it officially became a guitar company in 1902. though Gibson always has been a high-end brand.

pup winders in the 50s didn't have special skills or anything they just turn the machine on and off.

IMHO, the craftmanship of today's Gibson CS is on par with the Gibson of the 50s. the only difference are the woods and materials.

[Pythonman]

Why replace Gibson pickups? I used to say the same thing. But when you then really listen to Jimmy Page playing live in The Song Remains The Same or when you really listen to the sounds Paul Kossoff got on the first three or four Free albums or when you listen to Super Sessions with Mike Bloomfield, really listen to the sound quality and try to reproduce it on your Les Paul with modern Gibson pickups through a similar quality amp and nothing else you soon realize something is wrong. And after long fooling yourself into thinking the Burstbuckers, 490s, 57 classics can do it you start looking for better sounds. Those PAF and PAF recreations like Throbaks and Holmes and Timbuckers etc that us nutty forum guys go on and on about. But that's if you're into original sounds created by guitarists with PAF loaded axes. If your tastes are heavier you might like something else better. Basically, other than Gibson's hot ceramic pickups which are made specifically for harder stuff and sound wonderful for that genre of hard music, all their other stuff is rather plain jane on it's own, rather one dimensional and sound cool enough playing through the usual amp fare at Guitar Center to get guys to buy them and feel like rock stars I guess. They don't sound like junk. Matter of fact I had a Les Paul Standard Plus with burstbucker pros and I soon swapped them out for covered Seymour Duncan 59s. About a month later I put the Pros back in and it even sounded better than when I first got the axe. But neither sounded like PAFs nor had the PAF characteristics I like. Recently I put my first set of high end PAF clones, Wolfetone Legends to be exact, into my R8 and as I'm dialing them in the sounds are much, much more to my liking. Plenty of detail through both pickups, honkin mids in the bridge with a fat meaty low end. A killer middle position with that bright nasally snarl and an amazingly warm and lovely sounding neck pickup. Not night and day different from the Burstbuckers, well maybe close to that but heading far into the PAF tone field that I've been chasing for years. Great pickups.

[The_Sentry]

YouTube - Jefferson Airplane - White rabbit whit lyrics -psychedelic version

YouTube - Jefferson Airplane - White rabbit whit lyrics -psychedelic version

[smorgdonkey]

I have 2 Gibson Les Paul Studios. I liked the 490R and 498T at first but I never had Les Paul style guitars prior to getting my first one so I think the difference for difference's sake was a major part of it.

As time passed I realized that they only did distorted tones well in my opinion and I also noticed a bit of a harshness in the high end from the bridge pickup. The neck pickup didn't sound big and creamy like say a Seymour Duncan '59 does which is the way I like to hear a pickup behave in the neck especially for driven tones. It also didn't play clean well with the volume rolled back (bridge or neck).

I have Lindy Fralin pickups in my Gibsons now. One set of humbuckers and a P92 set. They do everything better than the stock pickups.

[AngryHatter]

Originally Posted by The_Sentry

I like the sound of the Gibson boutique pups...and I couldn't give a rip about the PAF sound.

I guess I don't see the point in trying to sound like someone else...

Not so much to sound like someone else as I know what I like to hear and cannot achieve it with the OEM pickups.

[richedie]

In recent times I started to back away from the hand wound boutique guys. I just don't hear the huge differences personally. Anything I need, I could get from Dimarzio, Duncan, Rio Grande or anything else used on ebay. I am tending to stick with stock these days or another Gibson pickup for my Gibsons for example...rather than search endlessly for something. I think so much is in your hands and comes from the amp/cab. The pickups are minor seasoning. I can get most Gibson pickups, BBs, 498Ts, etc to sound like one another if I adjust the amp, etc. If you like the guitar stock leave it or find another guitar.

[AngryHatter]

I had a thought.

Gibson should sell guitars naked.
And then have a check list of components to drop in - like piecing a computer together.

You'd pick a body style and finish. LP/ES/SG
Then pick a neck style - 50s - 60s - maple - ebony - whatever.
Then pups, hardware, et cetera.

I think if done properly they could still act like a mass producer and make thousand of pups/bodies/necks and then build to order.

Sounds like I just made a custom guitar company.
Anyone want to fund such a venture?

[rumbling_groover]

I don't think the stock electronics (pots and caps) do the stock pups justice. A set of '57 with good pots and caps are great sounding pups.

[MrRhoads]

Originally Posted by rumbling_groover

I don't think the stock electronics (pots and caps) do the stock pups justice. A set of '57 with good pots and caps are great sounding pups.

+1 i cahnged the electronics in my les paul with burstbucker pros to RS Guitarworks vintage kit

[alexx]

.

[alexx]

Originally Posted by gmacdonnell

Very wise words.

Dave Stephens is a guy who's making humbuckers that sound like real PAF's, (there are only a few, very talented winders doing this.)

Here's a great video comparison:
Stephens Design Vintage Lab vs Paf (Video Demo) G0 vs. '60 Burst


I love that tone, but many folks want a thick, fat, warm tone.

It's almost like people want the sound of a PAF, recorded through a tube amp, tube mic and preamp, analog board and onto tape, directly from their guitars. Which could be why almost every "PAF" style pickup is much thicker, warmer and less clear than orginals.

Very good point dude

[alexx]

Originally Posted by lp_junkie

Unless you have original PAFs and even then some of them are not up to par, you can always do better than the stock pickups that Gibson uses now.

That mantra "Only a Gibson is Good Enough" is just marketing hype and nothing more, resting on a reputation the modern company had no hand in building.

Well guys, if that´s so, we should throw away all of our USAs and Historics...

[alexx]

Originally Posted by The_Sentry

I like the sound of the Gibson boutique pups...and I couldn't give a rip about the PAF sound.

I guess I don't see the point in trying to sound like someone else...

That´s the point.

[CLC12ROCK]

Yea, I was thinking the other day, I paid $6,000 for my R9 and about $2,500 for my Standard. Shouldn't there at least be some hand wound pickups in there? Not some generic PUP that anyone can buy? It makes you wonder where all of that money is going to if they don't even have a guy winding PUPs.

[alexx]

Originally Posted by Pythonman

Why replace Gibson pickups? I used to say the same thing. But when you then really listen to Jimmy Page playing live in The Song Remains The Same or when you really listen to the sounds Paul Kossoff got on the first three or four Free albums or when you listen to Super Sessions with Mike Bloomfield, really listen to the sound quality and try to reproduce it on your Les Paul with modern Gibson pickups through a similar quality amp and nothing else you soon realize something is wrong. And after long fooling yourself into thinking the Burstbuckers, 490s, 57 classics can do it you start looking for better sounds. Those PAF and PAF recreations like Throbaks and Holmes and Timbuckers etc that us nutty forum guys go on and on about. But that's if you're into original sounds created by guitarists with PAF loaded axes. If your tastes are heavier you might like something else better. Basically, other than Gibson's hot ceramic pickups which are made specifically for harder stuff and sound wonderful for that genre of hard music, all their other stuff is rather plain jane on it's own, rather one dimensional and sound cool enough playing through the usual amp fare at Guitar Center to get guys to buy them and feel like rock stars I guess. They don't sound like junk. Matter of fact I had a Les Paul Standard Plus with burstbucker pros and I soon swapped them out for covered Seymour Duncan 59s. About a month later I put the Pros back in and it even sounded better than when I first got the axe. But neither sounded like PAFs nor had the PAF characteristics I like. Recently I put my first set of high end PAF clones, Wolfetone Legends to be exact, into my R8 and as I'm dialing them in the sounds are much, much more to my liking. Plenty of detail through both pickups, honkin mids in the bridge with a fat meaty low end. A killer middle position with that bright nasally snarl and an amazingly warm and lovely sounding neck pickup. Not night and day different from the Burstbuckers, well maybe close to that but heading far into the PAF tone field that I've been chasing for years. Great pickups.

But the sound that we hear IS NOT just guitar and amp. There are a lot of other things, but the most important, THE GUY WHO PLAYS THE GUITAR!!!!! To sound better, we must PLAY BETTER!!!!! Take the guitar of jimmy page himself, his amps, cables, mics, picks, etc, and you will do not sound like him. Is that simple. Period.

[MrRhoads]

Originally Posted by alexx

But the sound that we hear IS NOT just guitar and amp. There are a lot of other things, but the most important, THE GUY WHO PLAYS THE GUITAR!!!!! To sound better, we must PLAY BETTER!!!!! Take the guitar of jimmy page himself, his amps, cables, mics, picks, etc, and you will do not sound like him. Is that simple. Period.

+1 "To sound better, we must PLAY BETTER!!!!!"

[axepilot]

Originally Posted by Richie555

I seems strange to me that that while people are trying to get close to that original paf sound, they then rip out gibsons humbuckers to replace them with other brands copies of the gibson paf. Surely logic say gibson would be closer to the original.

Maybe they like the feel and playability of the Gibsons but want somehting more from the sound?

Not everyone seeks that original PAF sound. Not every Gibson pickup has that PAF sound. The beauty is you can change pickups.................still play that nice Gibson and tailor your sound.

[korus]

Originally Posted by alexx

But the sound that we hear IS NOT just guitar and amp. There are a lot of other things, but the most important, THE GUY WHO PLAYS THE GUITAR!!!!! To sound better, we must PLAY BETTER!!!!! Take the guitar of jimmy page himself, his amps, cables, mics, picks, etc, and you will do not sound like him. Is that simple. Period.

And sure that Jimmy Page Peter Green Michael Bloomfield Paul Kossof Duane Allman Dicky Betts and others each has its own tone and yet you can clearly identify 57-60 Les Paul Standard with PAFs at each and everyone of them.

While it is rather easy replicating legendary Tele and Strat tones, the challange with LPs is that these common elements in LP tones are not that easily replicated. Hence the market value, hence desirability of LPs and PAFs, hence the effort for replicating it.

And every guitar player should find his own tone. But that starts with replicating great tones of those who have already found one.. In order to speak you first learn vocabulary, then grammar ... At some point one will even write and publish his own book, but hopefuly not before learning vocabulary and grammar. Because lack of knowing these is always obvious. To those who do know vocabulary and grammar, that is.

Sure, there are different languages, but learning sequence is always the same.

[Deftone]

Originally Posted by MrRhoads

+1 "To sound better, we must PLAY BETTER!!!!!"

I agree, but after 30+ years of playing, I'm pretty happy with the tone that comes from my hands, I now want to improve on the tone from my gear.

[ruddy]

I Was always led to beleive that one vintage PAF wont sound the same as another PAF they are all slightly different sounding and so its really not straight forward! if you want a vintage tone you got to buy a vintage guitar they dont cost that much for nothing you know

[mattymel]

i bought into the VOS hype. then i tried a real 59'. i tried to live with the BBs in my R9. had them for a year, then did the 50s wiring. that helped. then RS caps/pots. that helped alot. then i got some lollar p90s in my R4 and i learned what a good wind can do. the neck only on BB is muddy. and the bridge is harsh. its not authentic PAF. its not worth trying to salvage. my imperials are on their way...

[MrRhoads]

Originally Posted by Deftone

I agree, but after 30+ years of playing, I'm pretty happy with the tone that comes from my hands, I now want to improve on the tone from my gear.

sounds good

[Horse]

Originally Posted by mattymel

i bought into the VOS hype. then i tried a real 59'. i tried to live with the BBs in my R9. had them for a year, then did the 50s wiring. that helped. then RS caps/pots. that helped alot. then i got some lollar p90s in my R4 and i learned what a good wind can do. the neck only on BB is muddy. and the bridge is harsh. its not authentic PAF. its not worth trying to salvage. my imperials are on their way...

it amazes me that top line Gibsons need the caps and pots changing out....not impressed..

[jodymauk]

Originally Posted by Deftone

I agree, but after 30+ years of playing, I'm pretty happy with the tone that comes from my hands, I now want to improve on the tone from my gear.

Thats why I have stated that I cannot pick a guitar off the wall and not find some way to improve it,,Im never 100% happy with a stock guitar...So far..
And with almost same amount of years modding guitars I pretty much can tell withen the first few minutes of playing what would be better ...To suit me of course........

[Goldtop75]

Originally Posted by alexx

But the sound that we hear IS NOT just guitar and amp. There are a lot of other things, but the most important, THE GUY WHO PLAYS THE GUITAR!!!!! To sound better, we must PLAY BETTER!!!!! Take the guitar of jimmy page himself, his amps, cables, mics, picks, etc, and you will do not sound like him. Is that simple. Period.

I play fine (or so I've been told). As do many others on this board who do try other pickups. Of course, those who do not have decent control of their instrument would best be concentrating on getting that rather than worrying what kind of pickups they're using.

However, how is a new guitarist going to improve if his tones are killing his playing?

On the more experienced level, I think it also goes a bit deeper than that. There is no better or worse when you reach a certain level of quality. I would not say a Tom Holmes is better than a Lollar or a WCR. It's a matter of preference.

Having never heard an authentic PAF up close that sounded much like what I'd expect, I cannot judge the authenticity of those new pickups. I can say, however, that they all have their uses. I've only heard what I think are nice PAFs on the net. They do give me a general idea of what I would expect from PAFs, and it's nothing like what you get today from Gibson pickups, except maybe the 57 Classics, which is very close to my ears.

But whatever I expect to hear from that guitar, is usually far from what is currently being produced now. And different guitars give different results with the same set of pickups. Yes, even 2 Les Paul 2009 Standards would sound in some degree, different. The trick here is how to get the best tone out of that guitar. I for one don't swap out pickups to get a more authentic tone, simply because I have no clue what authentic tone sounds like. I only know what I want this guitar to sound like.

For that, you need options. And that's where these new winders come out for. To provide options.