Took the plunge - 50s wiring - now what cap??

[Jailbreak]

Hi all,

Having done some reading (well a lot actually) in the numerous posts here on the subjects of capacitors and 50s wiring I thought it was about time I gave it a try.

I should say that at present I rarely use the neck pickup and never use either tone control. I just ride the volume on my bridge pick up, backing it off when I need to clean up the sound. I have an R8 from 2006 which came stock with 4 500k (or thereabouts) linear pots, wired in the modern style. I lived with the linear pot for a while until I could stand the taper no longer, deciding I needed a pot which would clean up a little quicker. I went through a bunch of pots and eventually stuck with a CTS "TVT" audio pot (30% taper) which I am now very happy with.

BUT...now I am starting to really notice that I am losing treble/clarity when I back off the volume. I have read here and elsewhere that the easy solution to that problem would be to change from modern to 50s wiring. For some reason however I resisted as I was concerned about the interactivity of the tone and vol pots, and also whilst I wanted to retain treble I didn't want to lose any bottom end. I needn't have worried. I finally tried this wiring yesterday and it sounded great. Just much better clarity throughout the range as I backed off the bridge volume.

Now, having done this I also found the tone pot worked a lot better. Hmmm. Two thoughts occured to me. Firstly the tone would probably be improved by getting a better capacitor and getting rid of the original dubious bee type reissue that Gibson use. And secondly an audio taper pot would make the tone pot more useable too...is that right? I have two Gibson Historic 10% audio taper pots lying around doing nothing which I could use. Doing the same mods for the neck pickup might encourage me to use that too !!

My question is what type of capacitor to try. Ideally I'd like original PIO Bees, 0.022uF for bridge and 0.015uF for neck, but scarcity and expense prohibit that choice. What type would get me fairly close but at a fraction of the price? I have read an awful lot of great info on this forum but it seems to be a bit of a minefield as the options are a bit bewildering to me.

Any advice very much appreciated

Cheers
Chris

[LtKojak]

If you use the INDEPENDENT '50s wiring, you don't have to worry about the interaction with the tone controls... which can be a good thing or not, all depending how you use'em.

In my case, I use a Master Volume, Master Tone config in all my guitars, so I don't need to worry 'bout a thing.

I can recommend the Mojotone Vitamin T .022 600V PIO caps. I have'em in all my guitars wired with 500K Audio Taper for tone and I'm more than happy with the outcome.

Mojo Capacitors » Mojotone Vitamin T (Oil Filled) .022uF @ 600V

HTH,

[Jailbreak]

Many thanks, Lt Kojak. Will take a look at these.

The interaction thing with 50s wiring doesn't bother me now that I've tried it. Wish I'd done it sooner.

Cheers

[tazzboy]

I would also like to point Vintage Vitamin Q caps are good as well.

[eddie_bowers]

I would say linear pots for tone. If you use audio they won't do much until you dial them way down.
I'm really liking the Russian K42 (the little green ones). I was a pretty die hard Vitamin Q fan until I tried these.

[2themax]

I ordered the Mojotone kit for my Epi LP Standard with the Vitamin T PIO caps - the wiring diagranm they sent is the 50's style. My Epi is a little muddy and I'd love to get it a little crisper. The Mojotone kit includes this volume mod - any thoughts on this? It doesn't say if the pots are linear or audio taper (and does it really matter that much?).

Volume Mod (Stock on most prewired assemblies): Jump a 220k resistor and a 471pf capacitor parallel from the un grounded outer lug (the same lugs that the pickup leads go to) to the center lug on each volume pot. This will give you a smooth taper and preserve your highs when you turn down. This also helps bring your pickups to life a little.

Thanks,

Max

[martin6string]

Originally Posted by 2themax

I ordered the Mojotone kit for my Epi LP Standard with the Vitamin T PIO caps - the wiring diagranm they sent is the 50's style. My Epi is a little muddy and I'd love to get it a little crisper. The Mojotone kit includes this volume mod - any thoughts on this? It doesn't say if the pots are linear or audio taper (and does it really matter that much?).

Volume Mod (Stock on most prewired assemblies): Jump a 220k resistor and a 471pf capacitor parallel from the un grounded outer lug (the same lugs that the pickup leads go to) to the center lug on each volume pot. This will give you a smooth taper and preserve your highs when you turn down. This also helps bring your pickups to life a little.

Thanks,

Max

Take the treble bleed caps off. It makes no sense to have them since the harness is wired 50's style.

[martin6string]

Originally Posted by Jailbreak

Hi all,

Having done some reading (well a lot actually) in the numerous posts here on the subjects of capacitors and 50s wiring I thought it was about time I gave it a try.

I should say that at present I rarely use the neck pickup and never use either tone control. I just ride the volume on my bridge pick up, backing it off when I need to clean up the sound. I have an R8 from 2006 which came stock with 4 500k (or thereabouts) linear pots, wired in the modern style. I lived with the linear pot for a while until I could stand the taper no longer, deciding I needed a pot which would clean up a little quicker. I went through a bunch of pots and eventually stuck with a CTS "TVT" audio pot (30% taper) which I am now very happy with.

BUT...now I am starting to really notice that I am losing treble/clarity when I back off the volume. I have read here and elsewhere that the easy solution to that problem would be to change from modern to 50s wiring. For some reason however I resisted as I was concerned about the interactivity of the tone and vol pots, and also whilst I wanted to retain treble I didn't want to lose any bottom end. I needn't have worried. I finally tried this wiring yesterday and it sounded great. Just much better clarity throughout the range as I backed off the bridge volume.

Now, having done this I also found the tone pot worked a lot better. Hmmm. Two thoughts occured to me. Firstly the tone would probably be improved by getting a better capacitor and getting rid of the original dubious bee type reissue that Gibson use. And secondly an audio taper pot would make the tone pot more useable too...is that right? I have two Gibson Historic 10% audio taper pots lying around doing nothing which I could use. Doing the same mods for the neck pickup might encourage me to use that too !!

My question is what type of capacitor to try. Ideally I'd like original PIO Bees, 0.022uF for bridge and 0.015uF for neck, but scarcity and expense prohibit that choice. What type would get me fairly close but at a fraction of the price? I have read an awful lot of great info on this forum but it seems to be a bit of a minefield as the options are a bit bewildering to me.

Any advice very much appreciated

Cheers
Chris

Don't get too hung up on brands. There are a lot of good NOS Paper in Oil caps out there - Aerovox, West-Cap, Gudeman, Cornell-Dubilier etc...

[tazzboy]

Originally Posted by martin6string

Take the treble bleed caps off. It makes no sense to have them since the harness is wired 50's style.

agree. Cause with 50's wiring you will get a lot of treble.

[jay1williams]

Originally Posted by martin6string

Don't get too hung up on brands. There are a lot of good NOS Paper in Oil caps out there - Aerovox, West-Cap, Gudeman, Cornell-Dubilier etc...

This

[Jailbreak]

Many thanks for all the advice guys. Very helpful and much appreciated.

Eddie, it is my understanding that audio pots are better for tones than linear. With linear pots all the action is between 0 to 2 or 3 on the dial which is certainly the case with the pots fitted to my guitar which I believe are 500k linear.

[Jailbreak]

I'm in the UK so I did a Google search to find any UK suppliers of PIO caps and came across these guys. Ordered some up on Monday - arrived this morning. Woo hoo!!

They say they are the same type as used by Luxe in their Repro Bumblebees. Should be just fine then hopefully.

Mac Guitars - Tone Capacitors

[Indyclone]

Originally Posted by Jailbreak

I'm in the UK so I did a Google search to find any UK suppliers of PIO caps and came across these guys. Ordered some up on Monday - arrived this morning. Woo hoo!!

They say they are the same type as used by Luxe in their Repro Bumblebees. Should be just fine then hopefully.

Mac Guitars - Tone Capacitors

That website is down... He used to be a vendor on this website.


I'm guessing he has the russian k40-y's or something like that.

I have a couple of those, and they're on par with the mojotone vitamin Ts.

[Jailbreak]

Originally Posted by Indyclone

That website is down... He used to be a vendor on this website.


I'm guessing he has the russian k40-y's or something like that.

I have a couple of those, and they're on par with the mojotone vitamin Ts.

Strange. The website works fine here. Must've been down for maintenance or some such.

Anyway the caps arrived very quickly so no issues with the service. They're going into my guitar this weekend so hopefully will be an improvement.

The 0.022uF cap I have is rated at 1000v. Is this a problem?

[martin6string]

Originally Posted by Jailbreak

The 0.022uF cap I have is rated at 1000v. Is this a problem?

Sonically, it's the same (for use in a guitar circuit) as 400V (the vintage correct value). Only difference for the purpose of discussion is the larger physical size of the cap.

[Jailbreak]

Originally Posted by martin6string

Sonically, it's the same (for use in a guitar circuit) as 400V (the vintage correct value). Only difference for the purpose of discussion is the larger physical size of the cap.

Thanks Matt. That's what I thought but very nice to have it confirmed. The capacitor I have is large but no larger than the fake bumblebee that came with the guitar.

[gtr-tek]

I've been using the Russian green K-40s for a while now and love them. They are still fairly easy to come by and not very expensive. The differences between the brands are pretty subjective. Shop around a bit and you will find a good deal.

[rastus11]

I used Sprague Vitamin Q's when I went to 50's wiring and couldnt be happier. I have not tired others so I have no comparitve info for you though

[Jailbreak]

Quick update:
The caps are fine. Better than the stock ones? Maybe. Hard to tell.
As for 50s wiring, well that change is a vast improvement. I'm able to tame the treble on my amp to suit the guitar volume on 10 sound and now my clean(er) tones backing off the volume never get muddy. Perfect.