Gibson can be a bit naughty sometimes...tut-tut

[5F6-A]

There were some doubts about how real the new Gibson bumblebee caps were. I was told by a friend the caps that Gibson installs these days in its Historic Custom Shop guitars weren't real bumblebees at all. We wanted to find out for sure so my pal ( who is a vet ) x-rayed one and opened one from his R9 LP. This is the result:

Photo of both caps. One is real and the other one is a modern cap labeled as bumbleblee cap by Gibson :


We x-ray the real one and this is the result:


We x-ray the new one and ... What the heck is this?


My friend got his pen knife out and found a decent ( yet plastic ) Wesco capacitor within the fancier bumblebee clone:





Isn't that outrageous or what??!!

[ReverendJWblues]

Like I've said in threads before its the NEW AMERICAN WAY let me fu*k you with this if you like it let me fu*k some more. Very little honesty left in the world.

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by jwblues

Like I've said in threads before its the NEW AMERICAN WAY let me fu*k you with this if you like it let me fu*k some more. Very little honesty left in the world.

Tis a shame that all too many will or would stoop to this , instead of buying some of these other smaller music companies, Gibson coulda have either bought Spragues, the copywright and made something even closer to the real deal. prolly why I will most likey get any more Gibsons second hand

[tarddoggy]

Can you guys bring me up to speed on the whole bumblebee,sprague thing.I thought the Jensen oil and paper caps were the way to go now.Why wouldnt Gibson use these?

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by tarddoggy

Can you guys bring me up to speed on the whole bumblebee,sprague thing.I thought the Jensen oil and paper caps were the way to go now.Why wouldnt Gibson use these?

It would appear Gibson went for a cosmetic coverup and marketing it as real Bumblebee caps which they are not, not even Sprauge brand caps

[5F6-A]

Originally Posted by tarddoggy

Can you guys bring me up to speed on the whole bumblebee,sprague thing.I thought the Jensen oil and paper caps were the way to go now.Why wouldnt Gibson use these?

I use Danish, copper foil, Jensens ( 22 nF for the dridge and 15 nF for the neck ). A couple of reasons why Gibson wouldn't touch them are:
they are pricey
they don't look like the old ones

hard to justify the extra dough even when they are aware of the tonal loss due to using caps like the wescos rather than jensens.

[tarddoggy]

tHANKS GUYS,I was looking at the upgrade kits from RS AND NOW KNOW WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON!

[ArchEtech]

WoW, I mean WoW - with all the rumors floating around about QC and the truth behind the chambering... how could they think no one would even figure this out eventually.

Are these things what is found on mulit-thousand dollar gibson historics or something? I mean if they charge 7k for a production guitar they should at least use legit parts my GOD!

[WBPickups]

Originally Posted by 5F6-A

I use Danish, copper foil, Jensens ( 22 nF for the dridge and 15 nF for the neck ). A couple of reasons why Gibson wouldn't touch them are:
they are pricey
they don't look like the old ones

hard to justify the extra dough even when they are aware of the tonal loss due to using caps like the wescos rather than jensens.

+1 on the Jensons!

[tarddoggy]

Originally Posted by ArchEtech

WoW, I mean WoW - with all the rumors floating around about QC and the truth behind the chambering... how could they think no one would even figure this out eventually.

Are these things what is found on mulit-thousand dollar gibson historics or something? I mean if they charge 7k for a production guitar they should at least use legit parts my GOD!

I completely agree,I hope somebody brings this to the head fellows at Gibson.

[terence_tez]

oh my,if this is the kind of 'treatment' historics get,i can't imagine what is in my standard...

[loneguitar]

Man that's just sad, cain't trust no one no more, bygone era, again all about the bucks

[dwagar]

a couple of thoughts
- this info has been around since they started using them in '03 (I think that's correct)
- even though they are 'cosmetic' IMO they are pretty good sounding caps.
- if you want real Bees, you can score them any day on EBay. IMO, the real ones (PIO ones) are the best caps for my LP.

[ArchEtech]

Maybe its time to test drive a PRS. I've avoided it because for some reason they bug me. Attitude with the owners, so much hype, I don't know. But you can get a hell of a PRS for $2300, the price of a Les Paul Standard. hell for that much I could have a custom built one to my specs and probably pocket some of that $2300.

Look at this guys work for about the same price as a Les Paul - Um I'd say its competition....

models/pricing

[lifele55]

Wow... that is definitely shocking. Only thought things like these happen with the counterfeit market or the lower end copies but on a real thing it self? Shocking.

[Tone Seeker]

Originally Posted by ArchEtech

Maybe its time to test drive a PRS. I've avoided it because for some reason they bug me. Attitude with the owners, so much hype, I don't know. But you can get a hell of a PRS for $2300, the price of a Les Paul Standard. hell for that much I could have a custom built one to my specs and probably pocket some of that $2300.]

If you're serious about I suggest that you take an SC245 for a test drive. VERY Les Paul like. . . 24.5" scale length, lightweight headstock & tuning pegs, etc. Mine is a dream to play. It's light and very resonate. I still smile when I feel the tuning pegs vibrate as I tune.

A pix of mine is attached.

Terry.

[PoorMan]

Oh geeze...

Frickin Gibson!

[Redfish]

Originally Posted by ArchEtech

Maybe its time to test drive a PRS. I've avoided it because for some reason they bug me. Attitude with the owners, so much hype, I don't know. But you can get a hell of a PRS for $2300, the price of a Les Paul Standard. hell for that much I could have a custom built one to my specs and probably pocket some of that $2300.

Look at this guys work for about the same price as a Les Paul - Um I'd say its competition....

models/pricing

No PRS in the world is a Les Paul. It's just not. Don't waste your money and time like I did trying to find a PRS to take the place of your Les Paul just because Gibson lets us down as a company. Suck it up, accept the arrogant corporate BS and play the best Rock and Roll guitar period. You always have to pay some kind of dues to have the best and if I have to put up with non authentic caps I think I'll survive.

[LoKi]

Caps are really not a huge tonal feature in a guitar. I've been working with electronics for the last 15 years. I build my own pedals, wire my own guitars, you name it. The value of the cap is more important than what its made out of. Metal Film caps provide the best fidelity, but is it extremely noticeable over any other type? No. There are differences, but 99.8% of the world can't hear them.

[LoKi]

Also, on a side note, I'm not a PRS fan at all. I can't play them well, and they lack something, for me anyway.

Some of them look nice though. I think a lot of the hype over PRS is that when a lot of those players were younger, they couldn't afford a Les Paul, so right away, you hate on it just because you can't have one. They got older, bought a PRS and because the price range is similar, they instantly get their backs up about how its 'so much better than a Les Paul'. I've heard PRS owners call Pauls 'old man guitars'... but never mind the fact that almost all of their heroes played Pauls through out their careers.

If you're looking for a nice Les Paul type guitar, ESP is the way to go. They are super high quality.

[Tone Seeker]

We should probably start a new thread if this keeps going. . .

I have played a LP for over 25 years. I tried out PRS Customs and Standards in the past and they just didn't quite work for me. I ran through the lineup again a few months back. I liked the SC245 and the 513 but not the others. They just didn't sound right to me.

The SC245 has a 24.5" scale like a Les Paul, and it had that LP warmth and "coo". The 513 is 25.25" scale length, and is longer than a regular PRS. It did a nice Strat thing with a bit more warmth.

My point is that scale length seems to be an important factor, at least it was for me.

As far as good caps go. . . I agree that the difference may be more subtle than overt, but I use my tone controls after putting Hovland Musicaps in whereas before I didn't. This may be a bit like the "feel" of a good tube amp thing, which impacts the player but is difficult for a listener to discern. Having said that, I did find that the new caps made an audible improvement.

Terry.

[ArchEtech]

Originally Posted by Tone Seeker

We should probably start a new thread if this keeps going. . .

I have played a LP for over 25 years. I tried out PRS Customs and Standards in the past and they just didn't quite work for me. I ran through the lineup again a few months back. I liked the SC245 and the 513 but not the others. They just didn't sound right to me.

The SC245 has a 24.5" scale like a Les Paul, and it had that LP warmth and "coo". The 513 is 25.25" scale length, and is longer than a regular PRS. It did a nice Strat thing with a bit more warmth.

My point is that scale length seems to be an important factor, at least it was for me.

As far as good caps go. . . I agree that the difference may be more subtle than overt, but I use my tone controls after putting Hovland Musicaps in whereas before I didn't. This may be a bit like the "feel" of a good tube amp thing, which impacts the player but is difficult for a listener to discern. Having said that, I did find that the new caps made an audible improvement.

Terry.

You guys are missing the point of the thread. The issuse isn't the tonal character, the issue is, just as in the chambering, Gibson is false advertising. they are changing specs, and actually increasing pricing. This issue is even more clear to me as fraud than the chambering. They are issuing vintage stuff, calling it vintage, and they are fake. They fake just as in what you'd get in a fake guitar. Some that looks like the real thing but is not. Maybe these electronics sound better than the old ones fine, the question is simply honesty. Be blinded by brand loyalty all you want, but there is no question that this is a dark road for Gibson to go down.

That said, nothing will replace my gibsons. But they will unquestionably lose business with this kind of business practice.

[LoKi]

I always come back around to the same point with this stuff... But Gibson's recent policies are the reason why I won't buy a Les Paul newer than 1990. The 80's Pauls have a lot of quality issues, but with a little TLC they become stellar guitars, as they should be.

And I know a lot of people dog on 70's Les Pauls, but their aging wood and quality of constuction have made them my preferred guitar.

Gibson is THE big guy, and as the big guy, they can get away with a lot of things that smaller guys can't. It has nothing to do with brand loyalty, people know that Gibson makes good stuff, and Les Paul's are THE sound of rock and roll. Its just a shame that they cut corners compared to the price of the actual guitar.

Consider the actual cost of making a Les Paul versus the retail value. Then consider the actual cost of caps *not the 'vintage market' cost, but actual manufacturing cost* and the whole thing starts to look a bit ridiculous.

Yet people will pay it, as the market has proven. As soon as you make something expensive, and exclusive, it becomes a hot item... Doesn't matter if its crap or not.

[ArchEtech]

Originally Posted by LoKi

I always come back around to the same point with this stuff... But Gibson's recent policies are the reason why I won't buy a Les Paul newer than 1990. The 80's Pauls have a lot of quality issues, but with a little TLC they become stellar guitars, as they should be.

And I know a lot of people dog on 70's Les Pauls, but their aging wood and quality of constuction have made them my preferred guitar.

Gibson is THE big guy, and as the big guy, they can get away with a lot of things that smaller guys can't. It has nothing to do with brand loyalty, people know that Gibson makes good stuff, and Les Paul's are THE sound of rock and roll. Its just a shame that they cut corners compared to the price of the actual guitar.

Consider the actual cost of making a Les Paul versus the retail value. Then consider the actual cost of caps *not the 'vintage market' cost, but actual manufacturing cost* and the whole thing starts to look a bit ridiculous.

Yet people will pay it, as the market has proven. As soon as you make something expensive, and exclusive, it becomes a hot item... Doesn't matter if its crap or not.

Yep I've herd them called the Harley of guitars. Its a very applicable title, and not really a totally possitive one either.

But in the end Gibby's are Gibby's. I actually have decided to do exactly that - my next Les Paul will be older. I think I'll keep the chambered for a while just becuase it IS different than the older one, and probably a different sound. Its a great guitar. I like my 2006 - it plays great and sounds great. It's even made very well. But... I've played $1000 guitars that are just as nice, but no... they weren't a gibson... they are overpriced but like many people its worth it. We buy lots of things for thier name.

One bonus, Gibson has the highest resale trade, and collectors value of any guitar. They keep their value, and are a good investment. Even if you play them for years, you won't lose much if anything in reselling one even if its just the standard players models.

[HolyGrail]

A PRS isn't going to be a Gibson LP. PRS makes some great guitars and beautiful ones with great QC.
What a PRS is closet to is a cross between a LP and a Strat.
It has a place in the middle of both, that's why he's done so well.

I have all 3. MY LP always has my heart and my Strat , well what can I say
it's a strat and I love those. The Prs puts a smile on my face too.

BTW~ Caps aren't just Caps. Electrical theory will tell you that they are the same.
But the human Ear and an Oscilloscope study ( If I can locate it )
Tell and show other wise . Now I can get into all theory on this matter.
I have most likely 50k in Caps. All Kinds and brands from 40's to the present.
( Flick knows it ) .
Now here is my and many guitar players truths. I won't say which one is better
we all have different ears, so as in pickups, what one may like can be differant
from another. If you want the TRUE Vintage Gibson sound you have to go with
what Vintage Gibson's used.

One more thing. Ceramic Caps are the Worst offenders. They Clip, but not in a good way.
( Clipping is when the top of each sound wave is cut off )
Some clipping will cause a nice distortion which many of us like.
But the Ceramic Caps just do it in a Bad way .

[HolyGrail]

Here's one part of the Cap Study someone did.

This should help you understand a bit better

Re: Capacitors


Here's something I wrote a while ago, maybe it will help:


Commonly, when someone asks about the effect of the capacitor in
a guitar's tone control circuit, the answer given is that the "highs get
bled to ground". This is part of what happens, but it's actually
a secondary part. The pots and cap form a "load" across the pickup's
windings and this load determines what at what level various frequencies
are produced in the first place, then things are rolled off from there.



This is Seymour Duncan's chart showing how the pickup's output changes
with different resistance loads from volume pots and I've spent the last
year thinking of things from this perspective. The essence of this model
is to consider everything as a load on the pickup rather than as a "path
to ground" attenuator. I believe it's a more accurate and useful model
for understanding what happens in the control cavity than seeing the cap
as an RC filter. This post will be an attempt to explain this to the
technically inclined with a practical example for the 'hands on' guys.


Let's start with the pickup. It's a coil and a magnet, and when a
string moves in its magnetic field a voltage is induced across the
leads. Of course, if the leads aren't connected, there's no circuit
and nothing happens. If the leads are shorted together, there can't be
a difference in voltage and again nothing happens. To get a useable
output we need to put a resistor across the leads to act as a "load".
The load allows some current to flow while keeping the voltage different
(maintaining a potential differential, in more poetic geekspeak).

If you look at Duncan's charts, you'll see the output of a guitar pickup
isn't "flat". That is, a pup puts out about the same voltage for any note
on the fretboard, but when we get up into the range of overtones pickups
have a big peak. We can reduce the peak by lowering the value of the load,
but then we lose output in the lower range on the fretboard. This makes
the guitar 'not as loud'.

The answer is to use two loads in parallel and block the second load
with a capacitor so it only affects the overtones. Capacitors block
low frequencies, so lower tones see only the 500K load of the volume
pot while the highs see the parallel value of the volume and the tone
pot: 250K. Thus, we get the 500K curve over the range of the fretboard,
but the harmonics are produced with the gentler peak of the 250K curve.


The 'bleed to ground' model would apply if there was a buffer after the
pickup to maintain a constant impedance (like the voltage follower before
the tone stack in a Marshall) and we would expect to see a -6dB/oct
roll-off. This doesn't happen though, because the tone pot is equally
placed across the pickup coil and adds to the load the amplifier sees
above the turn-over frequency of the capacitor.

Thus, in the new model, with the tone pot on zero there are no highs
because the pickup leads are shorted together at those frequencies.
Nothing is being 'bled to ground', because nothing is being created.
As the control is rotated, more high frequencies are created as the load
on the pickup increases and these are affected by a constant -6 dB roll-off,
but there likely will still be a +12 dB peak with the control on 10.


A more complicated model is not a good thing unless it yields more useful
results. If you've likely heard many times that a 500K pot is the 'right'
value for a PAF style humbucker. Well, there are only 3 available values.
250K is way too damped and 1Meg sounds a bit ice-picky. 500K is the best
choice of the three, but it doesn't follow that it's exactly right.
Unfortunately, the 'bleed to ground' concept doesn't help much here. It
seems 500K is a magic value for the volume pot and the tone pot only
controls 'how much' the capacitor is involved.

Let's start from scratch and design a network for a typical PAF style
humbucker using the load model:

First, connect the pickup directly to the output jack and listen. You'll
hear peaky, harsh highs that "ring" a bit too much. Since we have a little
experience, we'll start with a 500K volume pot. You'll find it helps, but
not enough, so we need a lower value.

Now, add a 500K pot in parallel with the 500K volume pot, just like a tone
pot is connected. If you lower the resistance of the second pot, you'll hear
a reduction in the highs, and if you go far enough they'll actually sound dull.
You want to find that "just right" point where it sounds neither screechy or
muffled.

Once you've found the sound you want (this is how it will sound later with
your controls on "10"), disconnect the tone pot and measure it. You likely
won't have a neat, off-the-shelf value, but to simplify this discussion,
let's say you read 300K, and you happen to have an old 300K Gibson pot lying
around. Install the 500K volume, the 300K tone pot, and as a starting point
clip in a .022 cap. Give a listen to what you've got, paying attention to
where on the fretboard things seems too muffled (if it sounds too bright,
with any settings, go back to step one).

Now you can play with the value of the capacitor and move the effect of the
tone control up or down the fretboard. Lower values (.01) will move it up
the neck, higher values (.04) will move it down towards the nut.
Specifically, doubling or halving the cap value will change things by an
octave. Myself, I like low values as the stock .022 causes notes around
the 12th fret to lose volume along with the overtones.

Once the cap value is settled, listen again with both knobs on "10" and
check your results. With the cap in place, things will sound a bit brighter,
particularly through the mids, and you may feel the need to lower the tone
pot value. Remember, the cap affects 'where' and the pot affects 'how much'.

There are a few things I haven't fully explored, like the tonal change
that happens when you simply put a resistor in the path, but using this
concept as presented I can now predict what changing a pot or cap will do,
maybe not with numbers, but with enough accuracy for a musician.

This method will work with either 'modern' or 'vintage' wiring, but the
effect may be more obvious with modern wiring. Moving that wire makes an
surprising increase in the circuit complexity so vintage wiring deserves
it's own post.

Those who 'cut the cap' or use the nailpolish mod might try the above
example with 1Meg (vol) and 2Meg (tone) pots.
__________________

[LoKi]

Great post my friend. I have to agree that ceramic capacitors, even though they are the easiest to find, don't offer the nicest audio fidelity. I've always been a fan of the clear, clean sound of metal film caps, but there are so many to try I have to admit I haven't tried them all. I'd love to throw a tantalum capacitor in a Les Paul and see what it sounds like... maybe this weekend if I'm bored.

Audio is a tricky thing when it comes to components, because as you said, preferred sound/tone is left to the listener... but in my humble opinion, the clearest 'truest' sound reproduction is always best... so however you can get that woody sound from your Les Paul, to your amp, as un-colored as possible can create a perfect base for you to build your own tone.

[HolyGrail]

Originally Posted by LoKi

Great post my friend. I have to agree that ceramic capacitors, even though they are the easiest to find, don't offer the nicest audio fidelity. I've always been a fan of the clear, clean sound of metal film caps, but there are so many to try I have to admit I haven't tried them all. I'd love to throw a tantalum capacitor in a Les Paul and see what it sounds like... maybe this weekend if I'm bored.

Audio is a tricky thing when it comes to components, because as you said, preferred sound/tone is left to the listener... but in my humble opinion, the clearest 'truest' sound reproduction is always best... so however you can get that woody sound from your Les Paul, to your amp, as un-colored as possible can create a perfect base for you to build your own tone.

Thanks

Loki~
I'd suggest you try some Mallory 150's (.022( for the tone you're looking for.
Inexpensive and I think you'd be happy with them.

In General an Electrolytic Cap ( tantalum capacitor ) is usually best in a power supply.
But, then again, if it works for you ,then it's the answer !

[carydad]

Originally Posted by ArchEtech

But you can get a hell of a PRS for $2300, the price of a Les Paul Standard. hell for that much I could have a custom built one to my specs and probably pocket some of that $2300.

models/pricing

Dang straight. The sc245 even has a longer neck tenon than the gibby long tenon, better neck joint(at least to me) and has a flame top(non 10-to much glam in a 10 top to me)for $2300 out the door a month ago. I have three LPs and like my slash sig the best of those, but the PRS puts it to shame for fit and finish. Of course, I added a switch plate and gibby knobs to the PRS and the RS kit. WCRs in it and Sheptones on the way for some A/B tests. Never bonded with a PRS until this one. I also looked at Kurt Wilson stuff. Very nice axes that guy makes. Neck THROUGH on those bad boys. Might have to add one to the stable down the road.

[Tone Seeker]

Originally Posted by carydad

Of course, I added a switch plate and gibby knobs to the PRS and the RS kit. WCRs in it and Sheptones on the way for some A/B tests. Never bonded with a PRS until this one.

Well put. . . my SC245 felt great from the start, whereas the PRS Customs and Standards I had tried in the past were just OK. Playing a LP for all these years has left an impression!

I'm looking forward to installing a set of WB 6707 VTPH's in mine.

Terry.